New CARB rules could put an end to PHEV conversions

[AZEqualizer]

This article from Autobloggreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/19/new-carb-rules-could-put-an-end-to-phev-conversions/)and East Bay Exress (http://www.eastbayexpress.com/gyrobase/who_s_killing_the_plug_in_hybrid_/Content?oid=903061&showFullText=true)about how strict new regulations from The California Air Resources Board (CARB) may impact conversion companies:

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/photos/e9/e9f9_feature1_2_jpg-story.jpg

The California Air Resources Board will be deciding next week on new rules that would require conversion shops to do the same emissions tests and offer the same warranties that automakers do. Under CARB rules, parts that affect emissions have to be warranted for 10 years or 150,000 miles. As an example: 3Prong Power is using lead acid batteries for their conversion, that only last 2-3 years and a 10-year warranty would be economically impossible.

Air resources board (CARB) officials are concerned about two potential problems that could increase smog emissions in some conversion systems. The first has to do with the car's catalytic converter. Located underneath the car, between the engine and the tailpipe, the catalytic converter cleans the emissions that spew out of the engine before they're released into the air. Catalytic converters, along with so-called leak-proof emissions systems, are the primary reason why today's cars are so much cleaner than those of several decades ago.

But catalytic converters only work well when they're warm, and they warm up when the engine turns on. Consequently, gasoline-power vehicles pollute the most when the engine is first turned on in the morning after being off for many hours. This high-pollution moment is referred to as a cold start. A regular car or hybrid typically has only one or two cold starts a day. However, it's possible for plug-in hybrids to have several of these high-pollution moments in a single afternoon of driving. The gasoline engine might click on several different times when driving around town — whenever the car exceeds 34 mph or the driver hits the gas pedal too hard. "The potential exists to significantly increase emissions," explained John Swanton, an air pollution specialist for the air resources board.

[ziggy951]

They just figured this out right now? Who would have thought, legislators are behind the ball.




Z

[dr4]

I've been wondering whether anyone has considered the impact of PHEVs on the energy grid. In checking out the source of energy for power plants, it seems nearly 50% of the fuel used currently is coal! What happens to the environment when whole populations start plugging in their PHEVs? To make matters worse, Isn't there is at least a 5% transmission loss in electric power? So doesn't that mean that your $5 gal. of gas will be equal to $5.25 in electricity? Even if we could build nuclear plants fast enough to stop global warming (which we can't) that still leaves the issue of nuclear waste. Although I suppose if you live near Boulder dam your plug in might be useful.
dr4

[Jack Willard]

Hello dr4! wel;co;m;e101))

I was wondering if you would ever post. LOL Please jump right in and contribute your viewpoint. wel;co;m;e101))

[ziggy951]

Stop global warming? What are you, insane?!?! Why would you try and change the Earth's climate?


Z

Anyone taking bets on this topic getting out of control?thu:mbs:up:22

[MikeB]

I've been wondering whether anyone has considered the impact of PHEVs on the energy grid. In checking out the source of energy for power plants, it seems nearly 50% of the fuel used currently is coal! What happens to the environment when whole populations start plugging in their PHEVs? To make matters worse, Isn't there is at least a 5% transmission loss in electric power? So doesn't that mean that your $5 gal. of gas will be equal to $5.25 in electricity? Even if we could build nuclear plants fast enough to stop global warming (which we can't) that still leaves the issue of nuclear waste. Although I suppose if you live near Boulder dam your plug in might be useful.
dr4

dr4, welcome to the club.

Yea, people have thought long and hard about the efficiencies of grid power vs on-vehicle combustion. And the result is that our current electrical grid, even with a huge number of coal-fired plants, is far more efficient and clean than an internal combustion engine.

We've got enough electrical generation capacity right now to convert around 80% of all cars to PHEVs, without building a single new power plant. The trick is to charge the vehicles overnight, when electrical demand is low. And there is about to be some significant investment in smarter grids and greener power supplying the grid, so the grid will probably improve faster than the vehicles get onto the road.

A combustion engine is just not very efficient, especially compared to a stationary turbine. Sure, there are electrical transmission losses to deal with, but you have far bigger energy losses in terms of hot gasses going out the tailpipe of your car. And converting battery power to motion using an electric motor is more efficient than attaching a crankshaft to your wheels through an automatic transmission.

Unless gas prices drop back to the $1/gal range, and stay there for the next few decades (which isn't going to happen), using electrical power for transportation is going to be the cheaper path. You still have to factor in the cost of replacing batteries into your $$/mile computation, but current Lithium batteries work out to be pretty cheap in the long run.

[dr4]

On a differnet note. Please excuse me I don't mean to presume that any of you haven't heard of Tesla's wireless energy transfer. If not, you can find the whole story at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer
I just thought it interesting. I hope I am not digressing from this thread. Sorry, I'm new to this.
I envision wireless pickup through off road charging stations (in-road?) which could be recorded on an in-vehicle meter and read like any power company meter for payment on your electric bill. No more need to plug in at home and no need for on-vehicle fossil fuel burning engines. Here's an excerpt:
"Wireless electric energy transfer for experimentally powering electric automobiles and buses is a higher power application (>10kW) of resonant inductive energy transfer. High power levels are required for rapid recharging and high energy transfer efficiency is required both for operational economy and to avoid negative environmental impact of the system. An experimental electrified roadway test track built circa 1990 achieved 80% energy efficiency while recharging the battery of a prototype bus at a specially equipped bus stop [17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer#cite_note-16) [18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer#cite_note-17). The bus could be outfitted with a retractable receiving coil for greater coil clearance when moving. The gap between the transmit and receive coils was designed to be less than 10 cm when powered. In addition to buses the use of wireless transfer has been investigated for recharging electric automobiles in parking spots and garages as well."

[Mark Tomlinson]

I've been wondering whether anyone has considered the impact of PHEVs on the energy grid. In checking out the source of energy for power plants, it seems nearly 50% of the fuel used currently is coal! What happens to the environment when whole populations start plugging in their PHEVs? To make matters worse, Isn't there is at least a 5% transmission loss in electric power? So doesn't that mean that your $5 gal. of gas will be equal to $5.25 in electricity? Even if we could build nuclear plants fast enough to stop global warming (which we can't) that still leaves the issue of nuclear waste. Although I suppose if you live near Boulder dam your plug in might be useful.
dr4
Wandering off topic here, but I couldn't help responding. You are touching on the "long tail pipe" argument here - that zero-emissions cars aren't zero-polluting cars. A quick Google search will turn up the problems with that argument. But in a nutshell, (a) electric vehicles create less CO2, sulfur, and other pollutants overall, even when the electricity comes from coal, and (b) much effort is being made to replace coal with cleaner forms of energy.

Regarding the electric cost; $5.00 of electricity in a Tesla Roadster fills the 'tank' (and then some). It's cousin, the Lotus Elise, gets 24 mpg; so at $5.00 a gallon and a 220 mile range, that's about $46. Obviously you'd have to use different math for a plug-in hybrid, but you get the idea.

Regarding you're first point about the impact to the grid; yes, people have considered it. One of our new President's "New Deal" objectives is to upgrade the national grid for the demands of the 21st Century, which includes electric vehicles.

[AZEqualizer]

We're very pleased to report that at today's California Air Resources Board hearing, the CARB Board decided to take another look at the implications for the aftermarket conversion industry tof proposed staff regulations for PHEVs (http://www.calcars.org/calcars-news/1042.html)