Taxing Motorists Based on Miles Traveled instead of additional Gas Taxes

[AZEqualizer]

GreenCarAdvisor reported back in January (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/01/pretzel-logic-taxing-motorists-based-on-miles-traveled-not-gasoline-consumed.html), Oregon Governor Ted Kulongoski lobbied to replace the state's gasoline tax with a tax based on miles driven. Today (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/02/massachusetts-joins-states-contemplating-pay-per-mile-road-tax-plans.html) they reported that Massachusetts is considering the idea of replacing shrinking gas tax revenue with a pay-a-you-drive tax. Massachusetts is at least the tenth state to be contemplating the move and there seems to be little in the way of a national debate on its wisdom.

Their logic is that - people are driving less and/or getting behind the wheels of more fuel-efficient vehicles, and the gas tax revenue traditionally used by states to raise funds for road building and maintenance is drying up. But as you can see from these two articles that this logic of their Pay-Per-Mile tax plans aren't well thought out and Massachusetts has the additional thought of wanting to big brother everyone with a GPS system to keep track of how much people drive in their area.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/MileageTax.jpg

[Derwin]

But as you can see from these two articles that this logic of their Pay-Per-Mile tax plans aren't well thought out and Massachusetts has the additional thought of wanting to big brother everyone with a GPS system to keep track of how much people drive in their area.

This is "big brother" and Government intervention at its WORST!

I'll tell you what, if they ever put anything like that in effect where I lived, I would move out of the state. The government has no right to watch every step we make, and tax us every time we blow our nose!

[ziggy951]

Just wait until OBD-III. Not only will they be able to watch every turn but fine you for speeding and not using your turn signal and stop your car if it pops an engine code and turn your vehicle off when you reach your monthly miles driven quota. Pretty far fetched until you see some of the things people have tried to push through Congress.

With this legislation I must wonder how they would tax people that drive only EV miles, or even an EV only vehicle? By the same standards?

You would think the govt would be thinking of ways to reduce taxation during this supposed "hard time" in the US. You know, make the so called common man's life a bit easier. du:n:n:o(


Z

[willk]

I dont want massachusetts to go into this, what would be the point of me getting a fuel efficient car? And a GPS on everyone?! The more the government intervens the less freedom we have.

[AZEqualizer]

According to Edmunds GreenCarAdvisor (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/02/feds-interested-in-vehicle-mileage-tax-too-says-dot-secretary-lahood.html)and the AP:
Federal Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has made it official: he says he wants to consider a federal program of taxing on miles traveled rather than gallons burned.

The National Surface Transportation Infrastructure Financing Commission, which issued a call at the start of the year for a 50 percent hike in federal fuel taxes to fund highway repairs, now is expected to issue a report next week that recommends instead a mileage tax.

Financecommission.dot.gov
Commission president Rob Atkinson told the AP that it would take about a decade to get everything into place - including GPS transponders in every vehicle so mileage could be tracked.

He said privacy wouldn't be an issue because the information gathered to compute the tax would remain in each vehicle's on-board data system and the only info downloaded to the government would be the amount of tax owned.

He also said that the devices could be programmed to collect fees based on vehicle weight, so drivers of small cars wouldn't have to pay as much as drivers of the large trucks and commercial vehicles that cause more road damage.

Everyone better be contacting their representatives and tell them what you think of this plan.

[willk]

He said privacy wouldn't be an issue because the information gathered to compute the tax would remain in each vehicle's on-board data system and the only info downloaded to the government would be the amount of tax owned.

Thats a load of b.s., just like gps in cell phones are just used for you to find your way from point A to Point B.

[MVRacing]

Some how I just can't see the federal govt paying/forcing the retrofit of millions of older vehicles with the milage tracking devices.

[denisg]

Well everybody wanted change. Well you got it.

[AZEqualizer]

The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/20/AR2009022003331.html) had this to report:

"It is not and will not be the policy of the Obama administration," White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said when asked at his daily briefing about LaHood's remarks (a vehicle mileage tax to augment or replace the federal gas tax as a means of financing highway repair) , which were made in an interview with the Associated Press.

[willk]

thats supprising 'cause $3 trillion has to come from somewhere

[ziggy951]

Well everybody wanted change. Well you got it.


Actually only about 52% voted that way.

[rogwild]

Or.....since only 132,618,580 voters of 231,229,580 eligible turned out (56.8%, highest since 1968), and 66,882,230 voted for the current president......you could say that only 28.9% of the eligible public voted that way!

[ziggy951]

rofl, INDEED Rog, indeed.

[Miracleman89]

For clarification- it was a Republican Ray Lahood who happens to be the transportation secretary, who had mentioned this idea. The Republican was brought on board to help bring republicans into the mix and get them open to the idea of working together with Democrats! After Ray Lahood made his comments about taxing motorist per mile, the Obama administration immediately advised the press that they would not support any such legislation!

So in conclusion, Yes I did vote for change I can believe in!

[MikeB]

I should point out that a mileage tax replacing a gas tax is inevitable, there is simply no question that it's going to happen sometime in the future. Ideally, it would be (mileage x vehicle weight), but that's less likely.

The only question about the change in tax structure is: when? Right now, a gas tax provides a little bit of an incentive to be more efficient, and raising that tax would provide a much bigger incentive. Given the need to reduce our oil consumption, I think raising that tax for several years is the best policy.

My guess is that it'll be another 10 years before rising gas taxes cease to cover road costs, and an increasing number of electric vehicles pushes a change into the system.

[denisg]

This is socialism at it's worst. Socialism works only when you spend other people's money. When that money runs out socialism fails. And it will fail. Oh lets stop blaming everything on the republicans, they do not control the country at all. Everything that is happening right now till 2012 fall on one party's hands and its not the GOP.

[Derwin]

Lets cool down the partisan political talk. We have members from both political parties, and many other political persuasions that love to post to this club site. I don't think any of us want any flame wars starting here over politics.

So, if you want to discuss issues that relate to vehicles and alternative transportation in particular, then please keep it NON-partisan.

I think we can have incredibly good conversations without mentioning party affiliation.

Thanks.

Derwin

[westonlgray]

The thing about electric cars though is that they will only be used on a small fraction of the roads in the country, and most wear and tear on roads doesn't come from small, light cars. The good thing about the gasoline tax is that people get taxed roughly proportional to the amount of wear and tear that their vehicles cause.

I guess that cities will have to develop something to pay for the roads because a significant portion of their traffic could be electric vehicles in 20 years or so.

I don't like the gasoline tax though for one reason, once the government gets the money, there is no guarantee that it all goes to the roads. Then when the roads get too run down, it is an emergency that requires new taxes.

[Derwin]

post has been retracted. I think I took this thread a bit off-topic, and I had to censor myself. Sorry.

Derwin

[rogwild]

???OK, I'll bite. Who would pay the 'taxes'???

[Derwin]

post has been retracted. I think I took this thread a bit off-topic, and I had to censor myself. Sorry.

Derwin

[rogwild]

Hey, I think this is going a bit off-topic here! ;-)

Derwin

Perhaps a bit off-topic; but it WILL affect the PRICE of a Persu Hybrid if adopted,......so maybe not too far off.

For business to pay the 'trillions' in added taxes, they will have to RAISE their prices to 'stay in business'. Therefore, all that is happening is that the TAXES are just collected by a different entity; business not government. In essence it is a switch from an income tax to a 'consumption tax'. Probably more palatable, but still the same final effect; (money out of the consumer's pocket)........unless you stop BUYING things. Just my thoughts on the subject. Think a Persu Hybrid at $40k instead of $20+. Ya get my 'gist'?

[Derwin]

post has been retracted. I think I took this thread a bit off-topic, and I had to censor myself. Sorry.

Derwin

[ziggy951]

Derwin just got owned by....Derwin?!?!


Z

[Derwin]

Yep. I had to shut myself down. I think I made some statements that may offend certain people, and I just don't want to go there anymore.

Derwin

[RAN]

Heck, I enjoyed your Tax Rant. :taz: :wave:

[longspeer]

Maybe my post is a little late but here it is. I think taxes need to be charged fairly to all drivers. However with that in mind it is important to have government projects audited so the waist is minimized. I think the best idea would be to tax by mileage but it should be a formula of car weight. So someone driving a motorcycle would pay much less per mile then a full sized truck.
Just a thought
Tim

[rogwild]

Tim, that is probably the 'fairest', but could be difficult and expensive to implement, as well as 'Big Brother' intrusive (tracking people's movements). Looks like the 'Gas Tax' is the easiest, and will be around for a long time.....at least until LOTS of people 'go electric'.

[ziggy951]

WTF people. We already pay taxes on gas and vehicles and driving, through registrations, plates, tollways, mass transit we probably dont use, etc. Why the hell would anyone want MORE taxes on motorists?!?!?!



Z

[rogwild]

WTF people. We already pay taxes on gas and vehicles and driving, through registrations, plates, tollways, mass transit we probably dont use, etc. Why the hell would anyone want MORE taxes on motorists?!?!?!
Z

1. Because 'they' CAN!!!!(Greedy B@st@rds)
2. 'They' think they may loose current 'gas tax revenue' if too many people switch to vehicles that DON'T USE GASOLINE.

[wolf_tracker]

HiYa,

I was wondering if I was the only one to think wtf more taxes?
They want us to buy fuel eff transportation and when we do they
say they need more taxes...

with the way congress is spending on any little pork project it is only
going to get worse until we pay 80 percent or more on various taxes
or fees, no matter what we do :confused:

my .02
wolf

[Miracleman89]

The bad thing is that the tax system is stuck on stupid! They have taxed everything to death! Now that we are in need of serious overhaul in how and what we purchase to get by in this ever advancing society, they are afraid of losing all that money and falling behind. They have no idea which direction we will ultimately turn to and they are stuck in the beta vs vhs debate or for those who don't remember that situation they are stuck in the HD DVD vs Blue Ray debate. As a result they are looking at every possible way to tax those of us who are attempting to beat them to the punch. The taxes are far worse then what our founding fathers were dealing with back when they threw a tea party! We are taxed everyway possible! We are taxed when we earn money! We are taxed when we spend money! Heck, we are even taxed when we save money!

There was a point in time when one parent could work and the other stay home and they could afford a beautiful home in a nice neighborhood as well as a car or two and groceries! Now, both parents must work and many struggle to own a home or buy just one car!

Whether it is taxes or how much you earn being the cause of our current problems, there is one underlining factor in all of it, GREED! Of course they call it their bottom line!

Sorry for the rant, of course this is just my opinion I could be wrong!

[ziggy951]

There is a pretty easy way to fix it, two I can think of actually but only one can be spoken of here without partisan politics. One has to do with the whole big government vs small government argument, the other is....

The Fair Tax

Look it up. Its not perfect, but its a heck of a lot better than the current system. Easier to understand too.



Z

[willk]

i say just dont buy what you can't pay for. if you take a bigger bite than you can handle don't cry to the government when you start choking

[Mike kZ]

We need Fair Tax now!!!

[RAN]

We need Fair Tax now!!!

agr:1

[eskeptic]

Just wait until OBD-III. Not only will they be able to watch every turn but fine you for speeding and not using your turn signal and stop your car if it pops an engine code and turn your vehicle off when you reach your monthly miles driven quota. Pretty far fetched until you see some of the things people have tried to push through Congress.

With this legislation I must wonder how they would tax people that drive only EV miles, or even an EV only vehicle? By the same standards?

You would think the govt would be thinking of ways to reduce taxation during this supposed "hard time" in the US. You know, make the so called common man's life a bit easier. du:n:n:o(


Z

With a nearly 2 trillion dollar deficit this year alone, how did you really expect them to pay for it?

[ziggy951]

I expect them to reduce spending. Thats how. But I hinted sarcasm in your post so Ill leave it at that. =y:


Z

[MVRacing]

Oregon mileage tax program shows how to do it right (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/06/oregon-mileage-tax-program-shows-how-to-do-it-right/)

From Autobloggreen by Sebastian Blanco (http://www.autobloggreen.com/bloggers/sebastian-blanco/) on Apr 6th, 2009 at 11:01AM
[/URL]

Earlier this year, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood briefly became an Internet comment piñata by suggesting the U.S. think about [URL="http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/22/transportation-secretary-ray-lahood-considers-mileage-tax/"]instituting a mileage tax (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeffwilcox/186235756/sizes/l/). The idea went nowhere (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/24/transportation-secretarys-mileage-tax-idea-never-leaves-the-gro/), but this doesn't mean that a mileage tax is unworkable anywhere. In fact, Oregon began considering a mileage tax at least as far back as 2001 and started working with 300 mileage tax-paying volunteers in 2006 (see this 2007 post (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04/27/should-we-drop-the-gas-tax-altogether-in-favor-of-a-mileage-tax/) and Oregon's 2007 PDF (http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/RUFPP/docs/RUFPP_finalreport.pdf) report for more). "Oregon's successful experiment with a mileage tax," as Adam Stein over at TerraPass (http://www.terrapass.com/blog/posts/oregons-successful-mileage-tax-experiment) calls it, provides a model for how a mileage tax can and should work.

Basically, by combining GPS units that tracks miles driven but only transmit the data to receivers at gas stations and instant tax calculation at the pump, Oregon managed to eliminate a lot of the worries that opponents have of a mileage tax. These include privacy issues and added complexity. Still, one of the biggest problems with a mileage tax - that fuel-efficient vehicles and gas guzzlers are treated equally, thereby eliminating at least one incentive for people to shift to vehicles that burn less fuel - remains, no matter how well the system works. What's more, participants in the program ended up driving less than a control group, so there were some environmental benefits. If you're in favor of charging taxes by the mile, take a look at how one state managed to implement the tax without offending the (self-selected) people paying the money.

[RAN]

They can take their GPS unit and stick it where the sun don't shine.

[AZEqualizer]

According to an article on GreenCarAdvisor: (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/04/pay-per-mile-driving-tax-wins-support-of-house-transportation-chairman.html)

The idea of a pay-per-mile federal driving tax appears to be gaining ground, despite White House opposition. Without a groundswell of public outrage to tamp it down it could spread through Congress quicker than an outbreak of swine flu.

The chairman of the House Transportation Committee, where a bill to impose such a tariff would ultimately be considered, said this week he thinks Congress needs to quit studying and start acting on a proposal to charge us for every mile we drive.

The idea behind the tax is to raise money for the federal highway fund, which now is dependent on revenue from federal gasoline and diesel fuel taxes.

In the absence of a fuel tax hike, that revenue stream has been shrinking rather dramatically as our vehicles' fuel economy has increased and gasoline purchases have fallen as more of us stay home to conserve funds in the midst of a raging global recession.

Congress historically has been too cowardly to raise the federal gas tax, but some - including Transportation Committee Chairman James Oberstar, a Minnesota Democrat - think a mileage-based tax would work.

"It's going to have to be done," he said during a committee meeting earlier this week, "it's something we have to do [so] why not just move ahead...I am at a point of impatience with more studies."