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View Full Version : Carnegie Mellon Study: Plug-In Hybrids = Expensive.



AZEqualizer
02-26-2009, 08:29 PM
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/assets_c/2008/09/Volt2Final750-thumb-400x266-thumb-300x199.jpg

In a report on Green Car Advisor (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/02/study-finds-plug-in-hybrids-with-lots-of-all-electric-range-wont-be-cost-effective.html): Researchers at Carnegie Mellon University have found that the extra cost and weight of the batteries a vehicle, such as the Chevrolet Volt, must carry to achieve its targeted 40 miles of all-electric range make it too expensive to be cost-effective transportation for most people.

The Carnegie Mellon researchers say in their study of plug-in hybrid cost-effectiveness, but if an owner hopes to recoup ownership costs from fuel savings, a rechargeable hybrid vehicle capable of that much all-electric range isn't the answer.

"Forty miles might be a sweet spot for making sure a lot of people get to work without using gasoline, but you're doing it at a cost that will never be repaid in fuel savings," Jeremy Michalek, an engineering professor who led the study, told Bloomberg News in an interview.

While so-called long-range plug-ins such as the Volt may not pay for themselves with fuel savings, the Carnegie Mellon researchers do find that they "could minimize [greenhouse gas] emissions for some drivers and provide potential to shift air pollutant emissions away from population centers."

One scenario the university researchers didn't address in their study is the impact that nationwide gasoline shortages and rationing would have on the cost-effectiveness of a vehicle that can run a substantial distance on its grid-charged batteries before requiring a petroleum engine assist.

rogwild
02-26-2009, 09:29 PM
What ever happened to those 'Ultra-Capacitor' guys that were going to change everything and save the world? With a super-quick recharge, you could extend that 40, 60, ...100 mile range and only use gasoline for 'emergencies'.

MVRacing
02-26-2009, 10:25 PM
What ever happened to those 'Ultra-Capacitor' guys ....


We're still waiting for them to show ANY type of prototype :confused:

RAN
02-27-2009, 01:16 AM
I'm still pissed at the metal fuel guys. They've had working metal-air fuel cells for years. They've tested them in cars and buses. They work. They're clean. They could be manufactured for a fraction of what it costs to build internal combustion engines, and yet they can't seem to get the ball rolling. There may not be a conspiracy per se between automakers and oil companies <cough!>, but it's strange how nobody seems to want to fund the manufacture of metal-air fuel cells for cars, while millions are dumped into new ICEs and into trying to force hydrogen into desirability.
We could have EVs with quick refueling NOW, that used no fossil fuels. The technology is already there. Meanwhile, we have to keep putting up with mindless gibberish from greedheads who simply aren't willing to let go of their stranglehold on our wallets. And we let them get away with it.
Batteries and ultracaps may one day reach a zenith where they can combine a 150,000 mile cycle life with 400 mile range and 15 minute recharging, all at an affordable price, but the truth is that metal fuel will work just fine until then, and beyond.
How many more billions are we gonna squirt down the rabbit hole to let the status stay quo?

Derwin
02-27-2009, 10:27 AM
The technology is already there.

I know I'm probably "late" to this game, but if this technology is "already there", then why doesn't some independent schmuck just use it in a vehicle? Why doesn't a small company, or even an individual, just use this tech and show the world the possibilities?

Derwin

rogwild
02-27-2009, 11:31 AM
Good question Derwin! RAN, do you know of ANY vehicle or prototype (500lbs or more) that has demonstrated that this technology can in fact propel a heavier vehicle plus occupants at highway speeds for an extended period of time? Having a working 'power source' that will do light work for short periods does not always translate to a mobile source that will do heavy work for long sustained periods.
I am ignorant on 'metal-air fuel cells', so please enlighten me. Sounds interesting and promising, but there has to some REASON why we have not seen them in vehicles by now........unless as SBW always says.......its "BIG OIL" that must own the patents.

MVRacing
02-27-2009, 02:52 PM
Batteries & Hybrid Technology (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19) http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/images/misc/navbits_finallink_ltr.gif (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=378&highlight=metal+fuel+cell) The Promise of Metal Fuel Cells

Lots of good info and links in this thread.

rogwild
02-27-2009, 04:43 PM
It seems that eVionyx has converted a vehicle and set records years ago,......but they are not 'Registered' nor an 'Letter of Intent' team listed for the Automotive X-Prize. I wonder why? It would seem that even if they were not interested in 'Vehicle Production', that they would sponsor a vehicle showcasing their Technology........but I don't even see one vehicle using metal fuel cell technology.

shinn497
02-27-2009, 07:39 PM
I did some dirty calculations on this and you will spend in between 10-50% less on fuel depending on how you drive. That's around 1000$-500$ a year.

The car costs 40$ minus a 72,500$ tax credit. So I'd say there is about a 15,000$ apportunnity cost. Depending on the other car you are thinking about. Thus, depending on how you look at it it will take 10-20 years to pay off the premium for this car.

One thing I am very curious about is the difference in maintenance, as the ICE is not directly driving the vehicle and cycles only intermittantly, I am wondering if it has less stress. I kow for a fact that all electric vehicles are more reliable but am not sure about PHEVs.

MVRacing
04-04-2009, 07:02 PM
On an interesting (and disappointing) note, the 7th annual Advanced Capacitors World Summit 2009 set for March 31 – April 2, 2009 at the Hilton Torrey Pines in La Jolla, CA, US.

ESStor was not a speaker or exhibiter. No news releases from the conference yet.



As reported on http://www.ultracapacitors.org/news/index (http://www.ultracapacitors.org/news/index)