Propulsion

[ziggy951]

How about throwing around some ideas for propulsion for our open source project?

Personally I am thinking about using a very fuel efficient genset but I dont really know how to set one up, how the power requirements will translate, etc, etc.


Anyone done some brain storming on this yet?



Z

[wireman]

Yo Ziggy! Warped1 spoke in his build thread about a system which is (like the one made for the PH) a complete set of motor/controller. The place to look is www.electroauto.com. Myself, I was considering the same system using a differential from a donor car to keep the drivetrain as low as possible (level with the wheel center if we can). Only thing is, it would have to be something like a truck 4WD diff to withstand the torque these motors can generate. One of the guys from the old VV forum was converting a "vette" to electric. He hooked up to his OEM diff. and very quickly destroyed it. As far as the genset goes, I believe the MAZDA rotary will give us the best power/weight ratio for the cheapest price right now, and connecting to any particular generator with a star coupling is no big deal.

[ziggy951]

So its as basic as:

Generator (engine)---> Converter(If Needed)--->Controller--->Potentiometer--->Electric Motor

Is that all or did I miss something? If I can get away without batteries, considering they are the single most costly item, of any kind I sure would be happy.

Realistically I may just forget electric drive altogether if batteries are needed. Its the difference between a $10,000 project and a $20-50,000 project.


Z

[wireman]

Sorry Zig, but if you do a design as serial hybrid you have to have the batteries as the storage device for motive power. An onboard genset is only used to extend the range of the vehicle. You see, the power requirements for the electric motor slide up and down, and a genset motor works best and is most fuel efficient at a constant rpm. If you hooked the genset to the motor directly, you would have to throttle the engine up and down with the power needs, or throw away your excess energy as heat.

However, with the advances (and availability) getting better every day, the best way to get more range is to put in as many battery packs as the vehicle will carry, and still get to highway speed. More Ah = increased range. Depends on what you need, and it seems that most of the forum want at least 120 mi. or better. Or, as you said, go back to ICE.

[AZEqualizer]

I'm kind of for a simple ICE... try to keep the thing light for the fuel economy and try to get something efficient. Don't get me wrong I like the idea of electric motor and all ... I just think at this stage of the game it is too costly, heavy and component questionable. But it is also not my area of expertise either as far as needs in a vehicle. I am good with computers and repairing most things mechanical and electrical but I find too many different concepts for vehicles and don't know what would work, work well and be maintainable here in the desert.

[Mark Tomlinson]

AZE,

I almost agreed with you. My first thought was you're right - there's enough to worry about just building the chassis. And a good, light, aerodynamic vehicle with a well matched engine should get great mileage.

But then it occurred to me that the chassis design, body styling, and handling in an EV will be completely different than in an ICEV or PHEV. In an EV, the propulsion pod can be designed much smaller. Handling is addressed by moving the electronics and batteries to the passenger pod and placing them where you get a low center of gravity and the correct weight distribution. And the transmission can be a simple gear reduction instead of a much larger and expensive CVT with some sort of linkage to the passenger pod for reverse and nuetral.

Certainly something could be designed to accomidate both, but you'd end up with tons of wasted space and horrible aerodynamics as you design around unused areas. Not to mention comprimised handling since you'd have to accomidate two different weight distributions.

Thinking it through, I'm against anything except a complete EV since that's the only design that allows almost total design flexability.

[cearlnot]

I can’t say much but, there is a new engine being tested that’s as energy efficient as a 4 stroke diesel with the weight density of a gas turbine. It’s energy efficient, light weight and likes running at one speed for hundreds of hours. It’s not designed to run a generator but it’s being tested using one. It’s still in development but should be released within two years if things keep progressing. Unfortunately the governments involved so it will be over developed and over tested before it ever sees the light of day.
Earl

[ziggy951]

The only real issue I have with an EV or even a hybrid is the ridiculous cost of energy storage. If there were a way to get cheap energy storage I would be all for a full EV design. Because batteries are still pretty expensive I probably wont head that route.

If something like the EEstor comes out then a full EV is the only thing that makes sense but until that type of inexpensive tech is available I'll probably be sticking to ICE vehicles.



Z

[RAN]

I have a feeling that even if EEstor proves to be real in every way, the price will be right up there with LiIon for many years.

[WarpedOne]

The only real issue I have with an EV or even a hybrid is the ridiculous cost of energy storage
Yes, but there is a but :)

Those SkyEnergy cells that I'm dreaming about, now cost about 4,500 USD for 12kWh. They have projected cycle life of 2000 cycles at 80% DOD. If I manage to get 100 miles of range from that my design, that would mean 80 miles * 2000 cycles * 0,9 (after 2000 cycles, they only store 80% of intial capacity) = 140.000 miles.

4,500 USD is about 3,600 EUR. On this side of the pond such money buys me about 3,500 l of gasoline. CarverOne consumes about 7l/100km (33mpg), even if my design would only take 5l/100km (47mpg) that would last me for about 70,000km or 45,000 miles.

:eek:

Now, please tell me where I went wrong. I haven't expected to be saving money by going electric :S

[jglix]

If you add the cost of the electricity used it will help even them out.:)

[Jack Willard]

My very first choice in an ICE would be a Suzuki Hayabusa. That is simply because I do love having a really quick and powerful throttle available for a LOT MORE FUN when you want some. :burning:rubber:

I went for a few rides in a sandrail a year ago that had a Suzuki Hayabusa engine in it. Holy crap that thing knocked my socks off! It was so...... unbelievably fast! That little sandrail beat the pants off of every other anything on the sand mountain! That thing could NOT BE BEAT! dr:ive1) :burning:rubber:

The Suzuki Hayabusa would likely not be the best choice for mileage. But it sure would be for FUN! =y: And yes, I would still want an afterburner. :wave: See ya.... GONE!

[Gunner]

Now you're talking Jack. That would certainly give it some punch and they are easy enough to get your hands on. Super power to weight ratio.

[Gunner]

http://pesn.com/2006/05/11/9500269_Engineair_Compressed-Air_Motor/
Has anybody thought about this Aussie's compressed air motor? That would be thinking out of the box. :)

[rogwild]

Very interesting concept for propulsion. My concerns would be the weight and size (also safety) of the compressed air 'storage' container/s. I wonder what the range of the motor scooter (one of their 'test' vehicles) shown on the website, is.

One big advantage; you could have an electric compressor and storage tank at home, and 'top off' your vehicle each night to have a full tank each morning.

[slowblast]

Compressed air.. Scuba tanks... high pressure... The problem is removeing all the tanks every time your want to recharge, to put them into a barrel of water to soak the heat out caused by puming them up some where north of 1400 lbs. But hay if you have an bump and one of the tank spigots breaks your at the control of a rocket...

[Gunner]

No the guy uses fiber tanks so if it gets punctured it just comes unwound and no one gets hurt. TaTa motors is using the same tanks and say their vehicle will be able to go 800 miles or more on a fill up. Instead of removing the tanks they have a compressor at home or in the van model they have an on board compressor. They say it takes 6 hours to recharge so you plug it in at night in your garage. As for the weight, the guy was holding the motor in his hands that they used to carry 6 people around on a utility type vehicle. That one was about 30 lbs. Anyway, just trying to think out of the box. I like the Hayabusa idea myself. My son's gets about 50 mpg but if it were super charged you could probably get 70 or better.

[slowblast]

800 miles a fill up seem like a lot? How big was the tank? Seems my body would only get about 20-30 min at 2 to 3 atmospheres, out of a 10 liter, 2400 psi tank one balloon at a time.
If we could get 100 miles on a 1 hour fill up, out a 30 lb engine it would be great. Who needs EV, other than to power the seat warmer in winter. If it’s true we just need to think this, In-the-box… Like how to get it into the one between the wheels.

Maybe it’s time we take a 4V MC engine, junk the carbs, adjust the intake cam so it opens with the exhaust cam and replace the sparkplugs with high pressure solenoid valves that are driven by the electronic ignition, see if it really works.

News flash! Iran threatens to use their One nuclear device, to blow them self’s up… Unless the world ends ALL production of air driven vehicles!!!!
Dick Cheeny, Secretary General of the UN, mandates full support.

[rogwild]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]800 miles a fill up seem like a lot? How big was the tank?


TaTa motors is using the same tanks and say their vehicle will be able to go 800 miles or more on a fill up.
Don't think TaTa HAS MADE an 800 mi. range vehicle yet; just announced, "will be able". We 'might see' SOMEDAY.o:h"we"ll1o:h"we"ll1
Too bad it can't run on 'Hot Air', then Congress could travel for FREE!:)

[rogwild]

Here is some more info on the Tata or ZPM/MDI:

The CityCAT, already being developed in India (bottom left), will be available for U.S. production in three different four-door styles. But it's the radical dual-energy engine, with a possible 1000-mile range at 96 mph, that could move the Air Car beyond Auto X Prize dreams and into American garages.
http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/aircar0208.jpg
Again, NOT something I'd probably buy, but interesting.
That SUT design (bottom right), has some appeal.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html

[Gunner]

1000-mile range at 96 mph

Now if it could only lean in the turns

[rogwild]

1000-mile range at 96 mph

Now if it could only lean in the turns
I'll believe it, when.........http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/1pigflygif.gif

[MVRacing]

I'll believe it, when.........http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/1pigflygif.gif


LOL wonderful !! We have to have that in our smiley library.