Price

[Pat Furrie]

On the VV website, it says the price of the V1 will be between $20K to $25K (hybrid and EV, respectively; see http://www.flytheroad.com/venture_one.html). Can they really meet this price point? While poking around the Carver website today, I found a page where they say they'd expect the CarverOne, should it be released in the U.S., to retail for about $48K (see http://www.carver-worldwide.com/Dealer_FO/Dealer_Continent.asp?S_ID=56&R_ID=24&ND_ID=16&nc=1). That's twice the proposed price for the V1!

Why should we care what Carver says? Well, they have an actual vehicle for sale, so have the credentials to make a good prediction in this field.

How does this apply to the V1? The V1 is designed explicitly upon the CarverOne, and uses some of its technology. There isn't a lot of difference in capability which would account for the delta-$.

Don't get me wrong; I'd love to have an EV V1 today for $25K. But I have a feeling there will be a lot of price creep should the V1 ever meet the street.

[Bladerunner]

The Carver is a hand built motorcycle. Carver has no desires to automate and make a mass produces vehicle. They wants to continue with the hand built mode much like a Ferrari (and they currently can sell every Carver they make so why should they change)

[Pat Furrie]

Interesting about being hand-made. As for "why should they change," one could suggest that the same reasons that VV might do it automated would be the same reasons that Carver should as well, or vice-versa (VV could see that making them by hand works for Carver, so why should VV do differently?).

From a capitalistic POV, many (most) of the weathliest people get to that position through the selling of lots of stuff relatively cheaply (think Wal-Mart). Yeah, you can make lots selling a few high-priced items, and that's ok if you're an artisan and higher motivations trump some of your fiscal desires. I don't know where VV falls in that range.

The Carver *could* be mass produced. Perhaps they don't for reasons of a feeling of lack of market: they sell all they currently make, but perhaps that's all the market will bear, regardless of cost (it is a pretty much smaller market than that for a regular car, or even motorcycle). The costs of automating production might not be economically viable. Do you have any insights into their reasonings?

If the market in the US is similar to the UK, then VV would have the same kind of economies as Carver, and might have to be more of a hand-built machine, with the consequent raising of prices. But if the market in the US can support enough units that automation makes sense for VV, then it would similarly make sense for Carver (and they've indicated a willingness and desire to make inroads into the North American market) to also automate. They'd more than likely know all this, so either there *isn't* sufficient market in the U.S. to mass create the V1, or there is sufficient market but the actuallity of building the vehicle is still what it is -- more than $20K to $25K.

Oh, and androids don't... but computers do: http://www.electricsheep.org/

[jmeineck]

Pat,

BMW is thinking about producing one of these vehicles also, except with a propane powered ICE instead of electric. BMW is saying that they can produce theirs for $10k. So VV should be able to come close to the $20k to $25k price tag.

[Pat Furrie]

Whoa. That'd be cool. Can you point us to any sites with the particulars on that? 10K for a BMW version is attractive... very attractive. Established respected brand for half the cost of VV. Then one has to wonder why VV should cost that *much*. All of this is predicated on the untested assumption that VV will actually be able to come through with the goods. Same could be said of BMW, too. GM designed a 3-wheeled leaner in the late 70s/early 80s, and other than an appearance in a movie or two, and an exhibit at Epcot, it never went any further than that.

[jmeineck]

Sorry, I should of had the link in my original message. http://www.topspeed.com/cars/bmw/2002-bmw-clever-ar9913.html Under stand this is still just a concept as is the V1.

Also the BMW Clever only has a top speed of 50MPH so it really would only be good for city commuting. It only comes in a combustable engine model as VV has exclusive rights to the Hybrid and EV market with the DCV technology. For a city commuter getting 188MPG on propane, clean it would work fine.

For me personally nothing replaces the V1 for versatility, style, cool and you can plug it in:-)

[Bladerunner]

Yes I would like to know also ... the only Propane powered tilter that I am aware of the the Clever @ http://www.clever-project.net/ and it is a Colaboration that BMW was part of for the European Commission and they couldn't find anyone to produce it.

[Bladerunner]

Heh you posted at same time I did.

Sorry to burst your bubble bud ... the link you had was from 2002 and no one has picked it up yet so I wouldn't be holding my breath.

[Pat Furrie]

The vehicle (CLEVER) is interesting... and substantially more tangible than the V1, as in, they have rolling prototypes with people driving them. Website does have updates in the year 2007 in the "Press" section of the site. Somebody there is periodically updating the site, so perhpas it "isn't dead yet!" And if it really is a BMW vehicle, they have the advantage of having actually built millions of production vehicles.

[rogwild]

I read the 'old' article "2002 BMW Clever" (posted 2006), but could not find ANY reference to an under $10k price tag. Must have been in another article. Seems awful low since the old BMW 2-wheeled 'C1 Cabin Scooter' was about that much.

[jmeineck]

First off I said $10k not under $10k. The was a post from the FlyTheRoad forums which I cannot find again, but this link come close to what was posted on the other site. http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C7545/. In this artical theyn talk about equivilant to 188MPG and the $10k price if it ever goes to production (which basically means it's vaporware at the moment) Also I miss spoke it's compressed Natrual Gas not propane.

[rogwild]

Thanks for the link, not very detailed or in-depth information, so I'm skeptical of the $10k statement (sorry about the under statement [skimming again]) since many 'Velomobiles' (enclosed pedal-powered, single person 'vehicles') are in this range; and some with 'electric assist' (20-25mph) even exceed this, so a $10k C.L.E.V.E.R. (with engine, tilting, 50mph) would be a REAL bargain. Can't touch a good touring motorcycle for that.

[jmeineck]

rogwild,

Yeah, I do the skimming thing to and it gets me in trouble almost everytime=y:
The point I was trying to make was totally miss by both Pat and Bladerunner:)because I assumed to much and did not write my post very detailed.

Pat what's to know if VV can meet their entry price point since the Carver cost twice as much. Bladerunner responds with the cost is twice as much because Carvers are handle built. I respond with the BMW article for an example of how a company who mass produces could get a vehicle cost down, hoping that would help prove Bladerunners point on the hand built Carver cost vs what VV will be able to build the V1 for. :(

Now Pat thinks BMW is the way to go and those vehicles probably won't even get built. Bladerunner is blasting away about an article from 2002. It was a good article, it shows how a company who know how to mass produce cars can make them at a lower cost. Believe me if KIA can make a cheap little RIO with a 4cycl ICE and sell is for $9300 to $11k. Then BMW could make a cheap little Clever with a 4cycl ICE for about $10k to $15k.

After saying all of that, I still did not get to my point. I guess that makes me a bad writer:)

My point is I believe VV can mass produce a V1 for the price between $20k to $25k for two reasons. 1. vehicle assembly will be automated and 2. parts will be purchase in large quantities so cost of part will be 5x to 10x cheaper.
Another reason I believe VV can sell the V1 for $20k is BMW thinks they can build a version of this vehicle without all of the expensive electricals for $10k. I'm not sure if BMW can biuld for that price, but like I said earlier if Kia can make a RIO for $10k why couldn't BMW make a Clever for $10k. The problem is all of the major car manufactures come up with concept cars like these. Then they send out a survey asking potential customers what they think of the concept. Since most US customers what a turbo charged V8 500hp that burn up 5gal to the mile. These concepts never make it to market.
That will change with the V1, VV will bring this car/cycle to market in mid 2009 and they will get the price close to $20k - $25k and if you wait for BMW you will miss the boat.

[Pat Furrie]

jmeineck

Well, I wouldn't wait if VV had a vehicle and BMW didn't, and I'd rather have an all-electric version anyhow. But let's think about this: you've suggested (correctly) that BMW's vehicle is vaporware, but don't give the same for the V1. The V1 is more vapor than the CLEVER... all we have for V1 are some changing artist renderings and pictures of the much more expensive Carver (it doesn't qualify for proof that anything has been concretely accomplished for the hopefully less expensive V1). The CLEVER page has concept drawings (lots), computer renders, photos of models, photos of full-sized working prototype, and videos of that prototype actually doing its thing. It may be vapor insofar as the production line is concerned, but is real insofar as having something to show us.

I'm not suggesting VV can't actually make the V1, but in the same breath I do suggest that I have no reason to have any faith that they can (other than wishful thinking). They have *never* produced anything for market, while BMW does, every day. If you had to put your money on a company who might be able to pull it off, it would be BMW (on track record alone, and combined with their having shown us that they have an actual working prototype). There just seems to be a lot of unsubstantiated trust for VV -- hey, I've even filled out the "here's what I'd want in my V1" form on VV's website... I'd like for them to succeed.

[jmeineck]

I agree with you Pat, and Ian has made me believe that he can get it done. So until VV runs out of money or drops the project. I will believe that they can get it done.

[rogwild]

JM, I too really want (and need a V-1 NOW), and agree that Ian comes across as sincere and dedicated to his 'dream'. =y:
But with no personal prior background in the auto industry (perhaps a good thing), I find it difficult to place much credibility in Vv's 'estimates' on performance, economy, price, and delivery schedule.=n:
I 'hope and pray' that they meet their goals, but if performance over the past 10 months is any indication (failed 'promises/commitments', slow progress on design, recent 'changes' in batteries and 'basic drivetrain', much talk on 'branding', but little word on 'physical' progress, no word on 'actual procurement' of parts to build a prototype, 'slippage' of prototypes/production by 6-9 months [in less than a year]); it only fuels my skepticism.:(

Perhaps the next Bi-Weekly Friday Update will have some real information that will 'cheer me up'. :cry:

[jmeineck]

RW,

I guess because I'm still a new member the skepticism hasn't crept in yet. Since I work in R&D and have watched proto-types move from research to production and I have not yet seen anything here to lead me to believe VV would make this happen. As I said I'm still new:-)

[rogwild]

JM;
I'm not saying that it 'WON'T' happen, just that it is taking MUCH LONGER (than I want) :cry:than anticipated or 'projected' by Vv. They promised to post a 'timeline' of major milestones (back in Mar or Apr) so that we could track their progress. Never happened.:mad: I really wanted to see how they were planning to allocate the very 'limited time' until PRODUCTION RELEASE.:IDEA:
They have some very complex and time/labor intensive tasks (design selection/'branding' NOT among them), like software/control development, component design/manufacture, and assembly plant construction among them.
Just take a headlight or tail/backup light assembly for example. They have to design it to 'fit' the vehicle design, determine the type/size of the lamps/bulbs, develop full size 'mockups', locate and contract with a manufacturer, test/approve the final product, order/ship/receive the lamp assembly, and make sure it 'fits' and operates correctly in the vehicle. This is only ONE part; we have doors, windows, locks, seats, airbags, suspension, brakes, etc. :confused:
I think it would be close to a 'miracle' if they could get this done and have a 'running prototype by 1st Qtr 2008, given that they haven't even decided what the thing is going to look like (or be called) YET.:o

Perhaps if they told us HOW the vehicle was going to be 'POWERED' (batteries / hub motors, single electric motor, transmission, trans- axle, etc.) perhaps I could see that at least they had a 'direction' and knew WHERE they were headed. Personally, from what I've read (and what Ian has released); I doubt if they have even 'ordered' the components to start on a Prototype, possibly because they haven't decided what they are going to use. Ian PLEASE prove me wrong!

[jmeineck]

I agree, I'm skeptical they will be able to meet the production date. It does feel more like Q4 2008 for a rolling proto-type and Q4 2009 or Q1 2010 before production release:cry:. This is only because we have limited information. It could be VV is farther along than we think or farther behind than we think. It is hard to say, but very frustrating:mad: Hopefully we get some good information on Friday that will give us some indication where everything is at=D

[rogwild]

:mad: Hopefully we get some good information on Friday that will give us some indication where everything is at=D
Ahh, yes, "HOPE springs eternal", and I 'hope' too, but if past performance and 'Updates' are any indication.........:cry:=n: