Eric Sandoz, Revolution's CTO [Archive]

Derwin

07-30-2009, 08:17 AM

I was just contacted by Ben Werner of Revolution Motors, and he has given me a "heads-up" on another officer of his company joining our club.

His name is Eric Sandoz, and he is the CTO of Revolution Motors.

If you have any TECHNICAL questions about the Dagne, please direct them to Eric.

So, please join me in welcoming Eric Sandoz to the FlyTheRoad Club!

wel;co;m;e101))

Derwin

pharuan

07-30-2009, 09:04 AM

Welcome to the club Eric. Thank you for joining us.

rickb

07-30-2009, 10:44 AM

Welcome Eric! Thanks in advance for the wealth of technical information you will no doubt share with us. I am a huge Dagne fan.

Gunner

07-30-2009, 11:10 AM

Welcome Eric, we are looking forward to hearing from you.

wireman

07-30-2009, 12:42 PM

A warm welcome from the Texas side, Eric. Looking forward to the discussions you will have with the club about the tech aspects of the Dagne when the required period of non- disclosure of details is past.

RAN

07-30-2009, 01:31 PM

Welcome Eric!

jeremymc7

07-30-2009, 01:56 PM

Welcome aboard from the Los Angeles side.

And of course if you need local in person input I'm available.

rickb

08-05-2009, 11:51 AM

Obama tabs $2.4 Billion for Electric Vehicles. Can we assume RM can apply and qualify for the extra $20 Million it needs to get Dagne rolling?

Eric Sandoz

08-08-2009, 03:50 PM

Hello, this is Eric Sandoz, CTO of Revolution Motors (Dagne). I'm here making my first post on this forum and I was saddened to see Derwin's comments. Coming from the other side of the fence perhaps, sites like this and the intense interest of its members are incredibly valuable to startup companies. The biggest challenge that most of us face is rasing enough money to get a vehicle in production and to market. Being able to show a Venture Capitalist a website like this makes a big difference in convincing them that an enthuiastic market awaits.

I think Ian honestly thought that they could get to market by that time, but if you talk to experienced automotive engineers, it really takes nearly two years to get a vehicle to production after you have a basic prototype. It is tough to ask enthusiasts to be that patient, but if you want to hold yourself to high standards of quality and particularly safety, it just takes that long. I think that all of the start ups out there are working as fast and furiously as they can to get you your long awaited cars.

One question that I have is what could we do as companies to keep you guys enthusiastic and faithful?

Eric

RAN

08-08-2009, 04:36 PM

Eric, thanks for posting, especially now.
You guys at RM have always been more realistic about how long it will really take to get your vehicle out on the market. It states on your website that it'll take 48 months to get the enclosed model of the Dagne into production once funding has been acquired. Meanwhile, you actually made a proof-of-concept working prototype (which the suits at Persu claim not to need), and you shared several videos of it.
VV/PM, OTOH, has run the gamut from making wild claims that nobody could meet, to putting up a stone wall and saying absolutely nothing (after admitting that they were going to go with a parallel hybrid setup that nobody was impressed with.)

I'm sure there will be things you will be able to discuss as your work progresses, without giving away any State Secrets, and I think that you will want to share them. Who wouldn't? Preaching to the choir is not the worst job in the world.

RM already has a reputation of forthrightness. That's all you need. thu:mbs:up:22

Derwin

08-08-2009, 04:37 PM

Hello, this is Eric Sandoz, CTO of Revolution Motors (Dagne). I'm here making my first post on this forum and I was saddened to see Derwin's comments.

Hello Eric, and welcome to the club! wel;co;m;e101)) Ben told me you would be joining up, and I'm glad to see you here.

I am incredibly sorry about this thread pertaining to selling the club, but it just seems all of my enthusiasm has diminished to nothing since hearing the latest from PM.

One question that I have is what could we do as companies to keep you guys enthusiastic and faithful?

Well, get the dang vehicle developed and on the market, obviously! The next thing would be to offer a version in KIT FORM for people to put together on their own, and have papers that would remove all liability from your company.

Short of the 2 obvious items mentioned above, I guess it would just be nice to hear about some updates. Next on the list would be to allow us enthusiasts the FREEDOM to be CREATIVE on our own. Allow us to make models, rc cars, and other things to keep us busy, interested and enthusiastic about your concept vehicles. Unfortunately, PM has pulled the plug completely on us in regards to this, and have even requested that I take down videos, etc. from the club. That is a sure way to dampen enthusiasm, and even create animosity with us enthusiasts and future customers.

So, what do you think? Is Ben up to providing any of the above items to keep us enthusiastic? What about a "kit car" version? Is that even feasible?

Thanks again for posting.

Derwin

WarpedOne

08-08-2009, 05:27 PM

One question that I have is what could we do as companies to keep you guys enthusiastic and faithful?

Take lessons from Martin Eberhard, who started Tesla Motors. It was two years of blog postings and prototype shows, but the crowd never lost enthusiasm. It just kept getting bigger and hotter. He was honest about problems and delays and the crowd understood and gave encouragement.

People understand the thing takes time and they are willing to wait if they get the feeling that there is some progress or even only honest will. My advice would be to just start posting to that blog of yours. Post about anything relevant about the vehicle you develop, the problems you are facing, the problems the vehicle will solve, post about some detail of that vehicle etc. Ask some of your employees to write something about the work they do, the problems they solved, mistakes they've made and corrected.

Start to build your community. Community feeds on info. Information silence is a death sentence.

Edit: And don't let lawyers make final decisions :)

Derwin

08-08-2009, 05:43 PM

People understand the thing takes time and they are willing to wait if they get the feeling that there is some progress or even only honest will. My advice would be to just start posting to that blog of yours. Post about anything relevant about the vehicle you develop, the problems you are facing, the problems the vehicle will solve, post about some detail of that vehicle etc. Ask some of your employees to write something about the work they do, the problems they solved, mistakes they've made and corrected.

Start to build your community. Community feeds on info. Information silence is a death sentence.

I say a resounding AMEN to all of the above! agr:1

I would just add that I recommend that you do all of the above, except make THIS CLUB the place where you decide to interact with enthusiasts. After all, we've been around a couple years now, and our membership base is already familiar with your company.

We've already created an entire section in this club dedicated to YOUR company and vehicle. I would suggest that you begin USING this club to your advantage, and light a fire under us enthusiasts once again.

Derwin

rickb

08-08-2009, 06:01 PM

I agree whole heartedly with all of the above comments...........only to add a periodic check and response to questions/comments on the Eric Sandoz Forum would be nice. Thanks for posting.

RAN

08-08-2009, 08:15 PM

I would just add that I recommend that you ... make THIS CLUB the place where you decide to interact with enthusiasts.

Yeah, well, Derwin, for one thing, you have this site up for sale, remember? For another, why would the Dagne people want to make the place for Persu Hybrid Enthusiasts their home?
I think that RM should continue with their own site, expanding the forum when they can. Most Dagne enthusiasts from this site are already registered over there, as well as several Dagne enthusiasts who have gotten completely fed up with the blatant shilling for Persu that has gone on on this site, and have long ago left here. It doesn't make sense to alienate them... they want a Dagne, and you won't reach them here.

Derwin

08-08-2009, 08:45 PM

Yeah, well, Derwin, for one thing, you have this site up for sale, remember? For another, why would the Dagne people want to make the place for Persu Hybrid Enthusiasts their home?
I think that RM should continue with their own site, expanding the forum when they can. Most Dagne enthusiasts from this site are already registered over there, as well as several Dagne enthusiasts who have gotten completely fed up with the blatant shilling for Persu that has gone on on this site, and have long ago left here. It doesn't make sense to alienate them... they want a Dagne, and you won't reach them here.

Well, RAN, I stated that because Ben (CEO of Revolution Motors) had told me that he wanted to do this, and I think it's a great idea. But, hey, neither vehicle is coming out within the next 4 or 5 years anyway, so I guess it's all a moot point.

Derwin

ziggy951

08-08-2009, 09:25 PM

Moot

:taz:

RAN

08-08-2009, 09:32 PM

Moot

:taz:

Yeah moot. agr:1

Derwin

08-08-2009, 10:24 PM

Yeah moot. agr:1

LOL! No, I meant M U T E....as in SILENT. It is a "silent" point. :wave:

:whoohoo:

Derwin

rickb

08-11-2009, 12:00 AM

Well, RAN, I stated that because Ben (CEO of Revolution Motors) had told me that he wanted to do this, and I think it's a great idea. But, hey, neither vehicle is coming out within the next 4 or 5 years anyway, so I guess it's all a moot point.

Derwin

Is that 4-5 years an actual target date or numbers you pulled out of your ear? Waaaaaay to long. It probably is a realistic time frame but I'm really not sure if I can maintain the level of enthusiasm required for that period of time. Something has to come out in the next 2-3 years.

Derwin

08-11-2009, 07:43 AM

Is that 4-5 years an actual target date or numbers you pulled out of your ear? Waaaaaay to long.

Well, I've heard an OFFICIAL date from Persu of 2012 for a California-only release. So I would think it would be 1 or 2 years beyond that for a national release. I think the 4 to 5 year time frame is a realistic one, but it certainly is nothing official or set in stone.

Derwin

jeremymc7

08-11-2009, 12:31 PM

Well, I've heard an OFFICIAL date from Persu of 2012 for a California-only release. So I would think it would be 1 or 2 years beyond that for a national release. I think the 4 to 5 year time frame is a realistic one, but it certainly is nothing official or set in stone.

Derwin

For those of us in California that's better news.

;-)

Still most likely at LEAST 2 years away still. And I'm still not hopefully till I see some working prototypes AND they issue an OFFICIAL press release.

But thanks for the update. Love all the info I can get.

rickb

08-11-2009, 01:12 PM

When it was VV, a small California based company, with production facilities likely in CA it seemed logical the first release on a lower number of vehicles would be California. If PM is working with a big dog manufacturer that has dealerships and service centers nationwide could we assume that initial production numbers could be much higher with a nationwide release. By the way I feel PM has a running prototype (Carver) and all they technically are doing is manufacturing a Carver hybrid with a redesigned body style. Frankly, the body design looks much like the styling Phiaro did for Carver a few years back.

rickb

08-11-2009, 02:29 PM

Here is the Phiaro video for your heart-pounding pleasure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nql1Jw3NB3A

jeremymc7

08-11-2009, 03:07 PM

Here is the Phiaro video for your heart-pounding pleasure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nql1Jw3NB3A

Great! Awesome! Except well never likely see it. It was a design concept built in partner with Carver. And this was four years ago.

We should have these things in abundance by now. Sigh!

rickb

08-11-2009, 04:00 PM

Great! Awesome! Except well never likely see it. It was a design concept built in partner with Carver. And this was four years ago.

We should have these things in abundance by now. Sigh!

Yes we will see it in PM's very similar body styling and the as exciting RM Dagne 2F1R version in about 2 years from today. :)

wireman

08-11-2009, 05:22 PM

By the way I feel PM has a running prototype (Carver) and all they technically are doing is manufacturing a Carver hybrid with a redesigned body style.

Sorry, don't agree that a comparison can be made between PM and RM's state of progress with the funds available to each. RM has made a REAL working prototype of their vehicle with the actual steering setup, geometry, frame, MOTOR, and TRANSMISSION. There is absolutely NO proof that PM has gotten out of the design phase due to the switch from series to parallel hybrid. Derwin, can you shed any light here? (Without compromising any NDA's?) PM had a sand-rail mule with the series components on it, and seemed to have at least started on the cabin frame in some old jpg's, but they STILL do not have a fully integrated vehicle to show for 6M $. (At least, not one that they are willing to show us here at FTRC!!)

IMHO, it doesn't matter if Carver with it's DVC was the original basis for the PH. IT'S AN ICE, not a hybrid! Until PM shows us a platform running the street, skinned or not, I'm with JMC7. RM and Dagne (with funding) are the likely ones to deliver something within two years. And I say that, even though I prefer PM's 1F2R design.

Derwin

08-11-2009, 05:50 PM

There is absolutely no proof that PM has gotten out of the design phase due to the switch from series to parallel hybrid. Derwin, can you shed any light here? (Without compromising any NDA's?)

Actually, there is indeed proof.

In case you missed it, Ian posted a video of the propulsion unit on ebay, and then took it down immediately, and asked me to take it down from the club. I posted information about this, along with Ians email, in another thread.

RM may have a "proof of concept" built, but it is very far from being a design that can be mass produced, and the components (such a steering and tilting) are completely unproven.

PM, on the other hand, has the Carver tilting technology that has been tested and proven on the roads for many years now.

IMHO, it doesn't matter if Carver with it's DVC was the original basis for the PH. IT'S AN ICE, not a hybrid!

Well, that SHOULD matter to you. It's the DVC Tilting Technology that has been PROVEN in the marketplace, unlike the Dagne steering and tilting tech, which has not been proven. This doesn't change simply because it's no longer an ICE.

I would say that PM is far ahead of RM in getting a vehicle to market. But that doesn't mean that RM can't change that very quickly.

If I were a betting man, I would say that the Persu Hybrid would reach the market place long before the Dagne. I say that based on not only what I have seen, but also on the connections that Persu has made with industry professionals that know how to get a vehicle to market.

Both companies are looking for money at this point, and I guess whoever finds funding first will be the ultimate winner in this.

But I'm not really concerned about who gets to market first. I just want one in my driveway!

Derwin

wireman

08-11-2009, 06:05 PM

Hey Derwin, I thought that vid was of the original electric motor being driven by the genset! I was not able to access the vid, but descriptions of it by yourself and others led me to believe that. If that was in fact the parallel setup, they still have to integrate it all with the DVC, but you could be correct that PM was much closer than I thought they were. And I STILL don't like that FOUR YEAR BULL!

Derwin

08-11-2009, 06:24 PM

If that was in fact the parallel setup, they still have to integrate it all with the DVC, but you could be correct that PM was much closer than I thought they were.

Well, whatever the case may be, the tilting technology that they are using has been tested and proven, regardless of whether the power structure is going to be a serial or parallel hybrid.

And I STILL don't like that FOUR YEAR BULL!

You and me both, brother!

Derwin

Mike kZ

08-12-2009, 10:49 AM

Actually, there is indeed proof.

In case you missed it, Ian posted a video of the propulsion unit on ebay,

Derwin

You mean "youtube" don't you.

rickb

08-12-2009, 12:42 PM

I don't understand the hangup with a platform running the street and it's relationship to a prototype. Actually, Carver could put a hybrid drive system in it's ICE and not change a thing in the overall design of the vehicle. The steering, transmission, frame, etc. remain the same with very minor adjustments to accommadate the hybrid technology. Why does Persu have to build anything other than a rail to test the configuration of the new hybrid components.

Peraves MonoTracer (ICE) conversion to the pure electric Etracer shows no change in design on the photos they emailed. They adapted the electric motor and batteries to the available space in the frame of the ICE version. Side by side the MT & ET look exactly the same except for the drive systems. They even adapted the BMW drive shaft to the new electric power source.

If I buy a hybrid Fusion or ICE Fusion same shell of a vehicle. So why spend any of the $6 Mil on building a prototype when esentially they already have one with the Carver. I'm still unclear where the money went..........perhaps a big chunk went to website management.

Derwin

08-12-2009, 12:58 PM

You mean "youtube" don't you.

LOL! I guess I have ebay on the brain!

Yes, it was youtube. But it was only up for maybe an hour or two, and then it was taken down. Luckily, I received a heads-up from Ian about the video, and then an immediate "heads-down" to pull the video from the club!

But, hey, at least a lot of active members got to view it for the few moments it was up.

Derwin

Jack Willard

08-12-2009, 03:42 PM

I'm still unclear where the money went..........perhaps a big chunk went to website management.

r:o:f:l:2:2:1r:o:f:l:2:2:1r:o:f:l:2:2:1r:o:f:l:2:2 :1r:o:f:l:2:2:1r:o:f:l:2:2:1r:o:f:l:2:2:1r:o:f:l:2 :2:1

Derwin

08-12-2009, 03:57 PM

If I buy a hybrid Fusion or ICE Fusion same shell of a vehicle. So why spend any of the $6 Mil on building a prototype when esentially they already have one with the Carver. I'm still unclear where the money went..........perhaps a big chunk went to website management.

That is pretty funny since I have heard SO many people post about how they think that Persu is "way behind" if they didn't build a working prototype, apart from the Carver, of course. Now your saying that none is needed. Well, heck, my opinion always has been that they DO have a prototype in the Carver, and they HAVE built a propulsion system which was shortly posted on youtube.

I guess it's all a matter of ones perspective on the situation.

Derwin

rickb

08-12-2009, 04:34 PM

That is pretty funny since I have heard SO many people post about how they think that Persu is "way behind" if they didn't build a working prototype, apart from the Carver, of course. Now your saying that none is needed. Well, heck, my opinion always has been that they DO have a prototype in the Carver, and they HAVE built a propulsion system which was shortly posted on youtube.

I guess it's all a matter of ones perspective on the situation.

Derwin

I always thought their working prototype was the Carver and all they needed to do was a body design and hybrid drive configuration. Certainly no engineering cakewalk but not that difficult either. We all walked them through a body style preferance on this website (which turns out to look much like the Phiaro Eternity's twin brother). I personally think they are ready to produce this vehicle with the appropriate funding or better yet a suitable national auto manufacturing partner. The frustration is why is it taking so long.........other than the icey economy. Persu is way out front in getting this type of vehicle into our garages.

wireman

08-12-2009, 04:52 PM

Hey Derwin, I'm not trying to be fractious, and I am not trying to say that the PH is "vaporware" still, because I want one myself! Even more than the Dagne, which I may end up with IF PM doesn't come through for us. It truly is a matter of perspective whether PM or RM is ahead of the game, and I agree with you that if Persu allies with a big boy they could get production going a lot quicker than RevMo.

wireman

08-12-2009, 06:49 PM

Derwin

08-12-2009, 07:23 PM

I personally think they are ready to produce this vehicle with the appropriate funding or better yet a suitable national auto manufacturing partner. The frustration is why is it taking so long.........other than the icey economy.

You and I think alike. I truly believe that IF Persu had the money it needs, then we would see this baby on the roads pretty quick. But, as you said, it's not exactly the best atmosphere to be asking for financial backers!

Persu is way out front in getting this type of vehicle into our garages.

I second that thought as well, although I only have the word of people at Persu Mobility to go by. But, as I've said before, Persu has been working on this a LONG time, and have made many "big name" contacts. Now they just need the investment money to get all the gears working.

Hey Derwin, I'm not trying to be fractious, and I am not trying to say that the PH is "vaporware" still, because I want one myself! Even more than the Dagne, which I may end up with IF PM doesn't come through for us.

Don't worry, your not being fractious! But I do find it strange that you automatically take for granted that the Dagne will even be a real option for you. I don't take that for granted at all!

Look...BOTH companies need money to take their business to the next level. The good people at Revolution Motors are engineers who have spent their time and money making a "proof of concept" vehicle. Persu Mobility has spent their time and money working on the engineering, and also making contacts with many "big shots" in the industry.

Neither one will go anywhere, though, without an infusion of money.

Derwin

rickb

08-12-2009, 09:13 PM

Dang! Got thrown off again! Where was I?

It is also true that your perspective colors your perception of just how far the competition has gone. I am not an engineer, but in my work as an assembly/wiring tech I have seen a helluva lot of engineering done, and built the prototypes for same. IMO, until you have ALL the systems integrated into a unit which is performing it's function under real world conditions, you have a concept NOT a prototype.

I agree with what you said. But all the systems integrated into the Carver are performing under real world conditions. I propose that the Persu Hybrid is neither a concept or a prototype but PM's introduction of the all new redesigned 2012 Carver Hybrid (Persu Hybrid Badge) to the US as a courtesy of licensing agreements between Carver and PM. Carver has wanted to introduce it's vehicle to the US and has allowed PM to take on all of the marketing risks as well as the investment dollars needed to mass produce the vehicle.

Derwin

08-12-2009, 09:40 PM

I agree with what you said. But all the systems integrated into the Carver are performing under real world conditions. I propose that the Persu Hybrid is neither a concept or a prototype but PM's introduction of the all new redesigned 2012 Carver Hybrid (Persu Hybrid Badge) to the US as a courtesy of licensing agreements between Carver and PM. Carver has wanted to introduce it's vehicle to the US and has allowed PM to take on all of the marketing risks as well as the investment dollars needed to mass produce the vehicle.

agr:1 That is a very good way of looking at. I agree 100%.

Now I just hope and pray that they get the investors that they need to get this thing going.

But, hey, this thread is located in the REVOLUTION MOTORS forum. So let's try to keep the conversations about RM and not PM. Actually, I just noticed this myself, and thought I should give you guys a heads up!

Derwin