Dash Board Space in Dagne

[erric288]

I have a question referring to the use of a Joy stick and the resulting empty space on the Dash where the wheel would normally be. What are you planning on putting there in its place (besides the airbag) if anything?
Thanks for the response.:)

[pharuan]

A tv so that when you put the space ship on auto-pilot, you can have a nice little personal lounge. :)

[jeremymc7]

That's an EXCELLENT question. I would like to see some mock-ups. You're gaining a lot visible workspace there. A much bigger instrument gauge is an option. Totally makes you rethink the layout of the dash.

The option benefit for up tall people is more knee room with the wheel removed. WOO HOO ! ! !

I LOVE the concept of the joystick. But have concerns. Need to live with it first to see how practical it really is.

Perhaps Revolution Motors can address some of the questions:

With a steering wheel you can hold it straight with your knees, drive with your left or right hand. If you need to fiddle with the A/C, Radio, Nav, Etc. While all the while using cruse control or foot on gas to keep moving.



How is cruse control handled?
What happens if you take you hand off the stick for a sec or two to adjust control on right side of dash.
How can you steady the car? IE you can't use your knees.
How do you keep going at constant speed without your foot on gas?
In fighter plan stick is center mounted so even though it's often configured for one hand you "could" use the other.
How do you handle a broken right arm/hand? You can't just switch because control is only on right panel.


There seem to be some great benefits to a fly-by-wire control stick but there are a lot of trade-offs in switching from a standard wheel/gas/brake set-up. This is further impacted with the control stick is not center mounted.

Thoughts? Answers?

[erric288]

I only know of one car that has a joy stick other than the Dagne and it's the air force supercar. However they use it as a shifter so they still have gas and brake pedals and a steering wheel. The point is that it is in the center. http://www.airforce.com/supercar/

http://a1.g.akamai.net/f/1/15157/1h/dodairforce.download.akamai.com/15157/supercar/images/wallpapers/x-1_800x600_09.jpg

[Hoosier]

Wow. Imagine trying to straddle the console in a traditional vehicle without the benefit of a seat to assist your maneuvering? :confused:

Government dollars at work.

[pharuan]

the cup holder placement sucks too.

[JoeU]

It looks like they were trying to make a drivable space shuttle.r:o:f:l:2:2:1
Or a road fighter.:zap2:

[AKP23]

Actually, jeremymc7, modern "fighter" aircraft are going with the side joy stick. The F-16 Fighting Falcon for a good many years now; and now the F-22 Raptor. I have been told that the side joy stick is much easier for control than the joy stick between your leg (h:u:h?1No! Seriously!:LOL:). Thus, new designs are incorporating them.

[Mike kZ]

The Dagne joy stick is movable. Here is a quote from their web site:

"Thank you to everyone who has contributed their input thus far - it’s very helpful and encouraging for us. As expected, the joystick is the most controversial aspect of Dagne’s design, as it was for us! We debated intensely whether people would accept something so different from the standard vehicle interface. Once we started test driving the prototype however, our doubts have been mostly relieved - the joystick really is intuitive, and it’s a lot of fun! Will we offer a steering wheel option? We’ve talked about it, but it would require a strong voice from our customers asking for it. We really believe in the improvements to safety and comfort that the joystick provides. Oh, and yes, the joystick is repositionable, so you can drive it with either hand."

[wireman]

That's an EXCELLENT question. I would like to see some mock-ups


How is cruse control handled?
What happens if you take you hand off the stick for a sec or two to adjust control on right side of dash.
How can you steady the car? IE you can't use your knees.
How do you keep going at constant speed without your foot on gas?
In fighter plan stick is center mounted so even though it's often configured for one hand you "could" use the other.
How do you handle a broken right arm/hand? You can't just switch because control is only on right panel.

Answers?
1. Don't know. Eric: A good opportunity for you?
2,3,4. The stick is spring centered, from what I can see in the vids, so that would mean that you push forward to reach the required speed, let the stick return to center to maintain, pull back to slow/brake. Once you have reached cruise speed, and are on a reasonably straight course, you can lift your hand for SHORT periods to handle controls. OMG! That would eliminate the need for cruise, wouldn't it? Or, since you are rid of the wheel you could reach across with the opposite hand.

[Ben Werner]

Hi All,

The joystick offers some unique challenges and opportunities, most of which have been pointed out in this thread.

Pros:
1 - Improved safety in frontal impacts because the steering column is gone
2 - Improved braking reaction time so you can avoid rear-ending the guy in front of you
3 - Feeling of spaciousness in the cabin and open dashboard (large touchscreen interface is the current design)
4 - Reduced driver fatigue, especially in stop-and-go traffic
5 - Works for people with lower-body disabilities
6 - Really cool and fun to drive (in my personal experience)

Cons:
1 - Very difficult to drive with your knee
2 - Switching hands is only feasible with an adjustable joystick (the current prototype has an adjustable joystick, but this may not carry through to the production vehicle)

The last "con" is an interesting one for me personally. I have really wanted to make the joystick adjustable so you can drive it with either hand, and I designed and built the adjustable mechanism (with Eric's help) that's in the current prototype. It works OK from an adjustability standpoint, but I'm not convinced the complexity of the mechanism will give people a feeling of confidence in the production vehicle. The joystick mount should be simple and solid-looking to inspire peoples' confidence in the interface. Having strained my brain on this for many months, I still haven't come up with something I happy with. The good news is that side-mounted joysticks in aircraft (both left and right sided) have proven to produce extremely little fatigue in pilots that use them, so the adjustability may not be worth the trouble. Still ,this is an open subject, and any bright ideas out there would be most welcome.

Thanks for the questions and please keep them coming!

[Necoras]

Ben,

I'm not sure that driving with one's knee should be much of a concern. I personally don't steer with my knees, but I've watched my dad and various other stupid adult males do it and really it's rarely steering but rather keeping the wheel from turning while you show off that you aren't using your hands. If the joystick functions in such a way that when the driver removes their hand it stays put (that is there is no set of springs resetting the position of the joystick) then this should handle keeping the vehicle straight and at a constant speed.

Good luck.

[rickb]

Pro #3: The large Touchscreen Interface may allow drivers to conveniently use GPS, watch videos, and text while keeping their line of site on the road. I feel safer already. (I kid the 75% of drivers already doing that). Also, let's keep our hand on the jostick please!

[MVRacing]

One option would be to put a joystick on each side with a selector switch...added cost.

Pehaps better would be a joystick "receptical" on each side with a lockout that only allows the change when in park.

Personnally I'm happy with just one on the right ...my dominant hand).

[jeremymc7]

The last "con" is an interesting one for me personally. I have really wanted to make the joystick adjustable so you can drive it with either hand, and I designed and built the adjustable mechanism (with Eric's help) that's in the current prototype. It works OK from an adjustability standpoint, but I'm not convinced the complexity of the mechanism will give people a feeling of confidence in the production vehicle. The joystick mount should be simple and solid-looking to inspire peoples' confidence in the interface. Having strained my brain on this for many months, I still haven't come up with something I happy with. The good news is that side-mounted joysticks in aircraft (both left and right sided) have proven to produce extremely little fatigue in pilots that use them, so the adjustability may not be worth the trouble. Still ,this is an open subject, and any bright ideas out there would be most welcome.

Hey thanks for getting back with us and providing all those awesome details.

I'm not sure how the enclosed cabin will be designed but a thought is possibly to offer in either right or left hand config. Stocking both let and right sticks the owner could prefer or have retrofired either config. There just need's to be mounting points on either side. The wiring loom could be moved, easy enough on a new build. Movable would be nice but depending on how it's done it might be too complex, expensive, not as stable, or more prone to problems then a fix unit.

[rickb]

Ben............is it possible that you could post a photo of the adjustable joystick that is in the protoype? If one joystick eliminates any potential design/engineering or future mechanical problems or keeps the cost in check.........one is fine. Keep it simple. What would BMW do?

[jeremymc7]

What would BMW do?

Build a different version depending on the market. Left or right hand drive for example.

=)

[rickb]

If you plan to incorporate new technology in a production vehicle I assume that you would test a market cross section to be sure you do not alienate any potential Dagne buyers. I question a wide acceptance of joystick steering the more I ponder the issue unless your target market is under 50 (joystick savvy due to gaming experience) and over 80 (joystick savvy due to power chair mobility experience).

I also wonder why we need to offer so many options for stuff in general. Instead of a base model plus 20 options wouldn't it ultimately be cheaper to offer one model with all the necessary bells and whistles and not have to deal with special orders, parts and multiple production runs. Particularly in smaller vehicles like the Dagne and Persu Hybrid.

[jglix]

Isn't a left hand joystick going to cause a problem if the exit is on the left and vise-versa? I don't think it would be fun to climb over a joystick... kinda like switching seats in a stickshift car. ypslj:kes;7(So, which side will the door be on?:fish:

[slowblast]

Always having to drive with one hand glued to a control stick will to be preaty uncomfortable even for a short trip to the supper market...

A Joy stick works great on planes cause they have auto-pilots and if left uncontrolled, they to continue moving in the exact direction they are headed. Besides they really don't care if they drift a few thousand feet.
but even it doesn't control speed.

Seem is would be easer (better) to just put a steering wheel back in and digitise it's position. And, by adding a simple motor, you could even provide tactal feedback to the driver of the tilt force.

Just because Henery Ford started with a stick, does mean its you should forget every thing we learned in the past 100 years.

[JoeU]

Slowblast, you make a very good point. agr:1It would get tiring too always have same hand on the stick. Unlike a steering wheel where you can switch hands and position on the wheel when your arm gets tired on a longer drive. It's too bad we can't figure out an autopilot feature. 2thumb:up Maybe we can get some help from DARPA! :confused:

[Derwin]

Slowblast, you make a very good point. agr:1It would get tiring too always have same hand on the stick. Unlike a steering wheel where you can switch hands and position on the wheel when your arm gets tired on a longer drive.

That's one of the BIG reasons I was never a fan of the Dagne joystick idea.

I think it would be unique and enjoyable for the first few rides, or even for the first couple weeks of ownership. But then the uniqueness would quickly go away, and then you have to contend with the reality of how your body reacts to the mechanics.

I, for one, don't think I'd like a joystick LONG TERM. Maybe to drive once in a while, but definitely not in a vehicle that I drive every day to commute.

Derwin

[MVRacing]

...But then the uniqueness would quickly go away, and then you have to contend with the reality of how your body reacts to the mechanics.

I, for one, don't think I'd like a joystick LONG TERM...


I think it will all depend on the ergonomics in how the interior is designed. If the seat height is adjustable, the arm rest is adjustable and the joystick position is adjustable.... then I see no problems with getting comfortable long term.

Ben, care to comment?

[rickb]

Excellent points on getting tired/bored with the joystick after a short time. It seems like one should steer into those tight curves with a more traditional steering wheel or possibly something more like motorcycle handle-bars. It would seem like the driver is a more active part of the machine with an interactive response rather than sitting rather passively moving a stick side-to- side, front-to-back. One would have to actually experience the joystick to see if you lose that driving experience which is so important to the fun factor in driving this type of vehicle.

[slowblast]

One of the neatest features of the Dagne, is its' control by wire... That is the COOL feature.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
As for the joy stick, it would have a plug...Right? If Dagne uses some kind of bus (i.e. CAN or 485) connection, you could put multiple joy stick mounts, about anywhere in the vehicle and just move the stick to where the driver likes it... Right, Left, Center,… You might even have a mount for back seat driver control (for once).<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
With simple changes in the software you could easily switch from joy stick, steering wheel or handle bar control. That could even be a user selected change. For the most part, control could even be changed while in motion.<o:p></o:p>
The point is, with control by wire, not only do you have ability to make hardware changes at drop of a hat, you even have the ability to change the control dynamics<o:p></o:p>
To match what the user likes.dr:ive1)
<o:p> </o:p>
And hey, there is good money in making custom updates for the customer. Especially if, they’re easy to do with software.
<o:p> </o:p>
That’s one of the biggest problems with auto industries. Their lack of vision “$$$”.
About the only real innovation we have seen out of them, in the last 50 years, is something they call an airbag. (that adds about $3k to a car.)
And, as for options, Gee, us customers gets to select the upholstery and of course the paint color… Whoopee!!!

[wireman]

<o:p></o:p>
1. As for the joy stick, it would have a plug...Right? If Dagne uses some kind of bus (i.e. CAN or 485) connection, you could put multiple joy stick mounts, about anywhere in the vehicle and just move the stick to where the driver likes it.

2. For the most part, control could even be changed while in motion.<o:p></o:p>


Re: 1 A workable solution. Also, to those in the forum who think fatigue will factor, I have used sticks in several types of control situations from aircraft control to missile target select apps'. The main way to reduce fatigue is to have a center loaded stick. In the Dagne's case, forward on the stick sets the speed until cruise is reached. Reverse disengages the motor first, and with further movement applies regen braking. Right and Left work the steering of course, and in the vids you can see the wheels follow the stick, which means that the wheels follow the stick back to center/straight ahead and remain that way until you input L/R again. For those who don't know, the reason pilots don't complain of fatigue is because their arm is usually supported on a console, and they do not have to supply constant input to the stick, but merely hold it loosely.

[wireman]

<o:p></o:p>
1. As for the joy stick, it would have a plug...Right? If Dagne uses some kind of bus (i.e. CAN or 485) connection, you could put multiple joy stick mounts, about anywhere in the vehicle and just move the stick to where the driver likes it.

2. For the most part, control could even be changed while in motion.<o:p></o:p>


(1) A workable solution. Also, to those in the forum who think fatigue will factor, I have used sticks in several types of control situations from aircraft control to missile target select apps'. The main way to reduce fatigue is to have a center loaded stick. In the Dagne's case, forward on the stick sets the speed until cruise is reached. Reverse disengages the motor first, and with further movement applies regen braking. Steering is L/R of course, and you can see in the vids that the front wheels follow and match the position of the stick. From left or right, move the stick to center, and the wheels return to straight ahead. The reason fighter pilots do not complain of fatigue is because their arm is supported by a console panel, and, due to the way that an aircraft behaves in flight, they do not have to keep a tight grip. They simply hold the stick loosely until the next input is required. Unless they are in a dogfight! With Dagne's stick set up as I have outlined, fatigue is unlikely unless you are on a VERY long haul. Your back, or your butt will give out long before your wrist or your arm!

(2) I will NEVER buy any vehicle, and will LOBBY AGAINST any design which allows the steering input to be changed/disconnected while in motion!

[wireman]

Sorry for the double post!

For those who don't know; when you apply directional input to the stick on an aircraft (a left turn for example) moving the stick left causes the plane to roll until the pilot decides the angle is correct for the turn. The pilot then moves the stick back to neutral/ center, but the plane DOES NOT RETURN to level! It maintains the same angle and continues to bank/turn. To return to level, the pilot must move the stick right the same amount as he did left. Almost all the direction inputs work in this way on an aircraft. That leaves lots of free time where the stick doesn't have to be gripped.

With the joystick spring centered and operating as outlined in my previous post(s) as long as you travel the straight line at the same speed, no fatigue! I believe the setup to be extremely intuitive, as left and right are exactly like a steering wheel, and forward to accel/backward to decel leaves only the selection of forward/reverse to be handled by another switch.

However, my personal preference is the handlebar type with TWO stick grips which move in a line forward and back, rather than rotating around a center point. Use both/one or the other hands. No switching required. Great feeling of control!

[Ben Werner]

Hi All,

These are some good, insightful questions, many of which we have been asking ourselves. I'll try and answer all of them (ping me again if I leave your question unanswered).

Long term driver fatigue with the joystick is a valid concern. The disadvantage with the joystick, if it's base position is not adjustable, is that your hand stays in the same general position for the duration of the drive. The main advantage however, is that you arm and hand are in a very comfortable, supported position the whole time, more so than with a steering wheel. Also, we intend to design the joystick so that you can hold it in a couple different ways, either on the side, or on the top, so you can reposition your wrist while you drive if you wish.

The joystick will require minimal force input while driving. it will not require any force to keep Dagne moving in a straight line at a constant speed. It's certainly possible that the same would be true when holding a turn/carve, but we'll have to experiment with this to see if it "feels right".

It's a good point about aircraft pilots being able to switch on the autopilot and take their hand off the joystick. This is not true however, for helicopter pilots, who must be constantly engaged with their joystick. I have heard testament from a helicopter pilot that he never experienced joystick-induced fatigue while flying. In fact, it's the low-fatigue nature of the joystick that's prompting many vehicles to switch to joysticks - vehicles such as Navy ships, personal watercraft, heavy machinery, and of course aircraft are employing joysticks more and more often.

Concerning the 100-year legacy of the steering wheel in the automotive world, it's important to remember that steering wheels and pedals were pretty much necessary until the more recent development of power steering and power braking. In my opinion the continuance of the steering wheel is more due to convention than its degree of optimality as a driver interface.

We intend to develop a steering wheel / pedal interface option for Dagne in parallel with the joystick interface. During initial customer test driving, if the joystick does not prove itself to be a winner for most drivers, we will put the steering wheel in as the preferred interface as we ramp up sales. Provided that the joystick wins in terms of fundamental driving experience, we believe we need to give it extra support to overcome public acceptance barriers, given the opportunity to redefine the personal driving experience, and define the Revolution Motors brandname.

[MVRacing]

Hello Ben,
Thanks so much for the reply.

Any progress on bringing your vehicle to kit or production market?

[jeremymc7]

Long term driver fatigue with the joystick is a valid concern. The disadvantage with the joystick, if it's base position is not adjustable, is that your hand stays in the same general position for the duration of the drive. The main advantage however, is that you arm and hand are in a very comfortable, supported position the whole time, more so than with a steering wheel.

Great information and thanks for keeping us in the loop as development continues. Believe us, we REALLY appreciate it.

The follow-up question I have here is in regards to comment that the joystick advantage is that arm and hand are in a neutral position.

Wouldn't be somewhat relative as with a steering wheel you can option adjust height of wheel, tilt of wheel, distance of wheel, distance of seat, and height of seat to get proper positioning.

As I understand you design would have the arm resting on console, correct? If so this would provide support for sure but bring up other concerns, adjusting height so that arm is kept at appropriate distance from shoulder to not undue pressure or strain on the shoulder. Angle of wrist to hold joystick to again avoid inappropriate angle, pressure, and /or strain. And of cause material arm resting on to keep blood circulation going.

Some of this can be handled by enough adjustment of the seat and the fact that you don't need to find a compromise in positioning for pedals and wheel since both will be handled by the joystick is another plus for the joystick.

Just my two cents.

=)

[wireman]

The main advantage however, is that you arm and hand are in a very comfortable, supported position the whole time, more so than with a steering wheel. Also, we intend to design the joystick so that you can hold it in a couple different ways, either on the side, or on the top, so you can reposition your wrist while you drive if you wish.

The joystick will require minimal force input while driving. it will not require any force to keep Dagne moving in a straight line at a constant speed. It's certainly possible that the same would be true when holding a turn/carve, but we'll have to experiment with this to see if it "feels right".


My thanks as well for your reply to our concerns, Ben! This feels much better than the other guy's responses (none). Your answer to Jmc7 is right on. A steering wheel is not an ergonomically sound control method in the first place. It induces fatigue, so naturally you must move your hands around to relieve it.

As to your experiment with holding a carve, do experiment with it if you wish, but I have driven lifts with this type of stick movement, and I can tell you from personal experience that this method is NO GOOD. You will find that it doesn't "feel right". AND, it is NOT SAFE at any speed higher than a 2 mph crawl. I would stick to what you have already demonstrated on your prototype, re: the vehicle goes where you point it as far as left/right is concerned.

[wireman]

Hey Ben!
It's been a few days since my post above, and I have had an idea about the stick that may have already been explored. It occurred to me that, since the stick is a digital input, it would be simple to flop the direction of the stick when the vehicle is in reverse. This would have the Dagne continue in the same philosophy of "goes-where-it's-pointed" with accel/ braking. As with the left/right discussed in my previous post, my experience with lifts has shown that this action does have a very ergonomic "right" feel to it. JMTCW.

[Ben Werner]

Wireman - actually, that's how the joystick in the current proof-of-concept prototype operates. I found it very intuitive to use - it's my personal preference for how the joystick should operate.

[jeremymc7]

Other then liability sake I don't know if one would even need a reverse mode. If the vechicle is stopped then pulling back goes into reverse. If already in reverse then pulling back further increases reverse speed while pushing forward slows the vehicle down to a stop.

Likewise from a stop pushing forward increases speed. While at speed pushing further forward increases forward speed while pulling back slows to a stop.

To make it safer one could just be required to recenter the joystick before proceeding in the other direction to avoid going in the other direction if you intended to stop.

Just my thought. Why add another control (IE button) unless it's legalily required, necessary mechanically, or users just can't find it intuitive otherwise.

[rickb]

Ben.................how is the actual dasboard and more importantly the other stuff it's attached to coming along? Is there a finalized dashboard design in the near future? How near? I would love to see the dashboard in a 360 degree spin of the finalized Dagne design. We haven't had an update in quite some time.

[wireman]

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the response. Yes! You guys at RM are working hard to change my focus to 2f1r! I for one, am very pleased with your design direction. You have covered my concerns in the FIRST iteration as far as the joystick steering goes.

As rb says above, I am now waiting (im)patiently for some of your latest ideas for dashboard/ instruments. Since you seem to be on my wavelength, I expect to see some awsome digital design work! One JMTCW (Just My Two Cents Worth) though; PLEASE don't fancy it with vid game graphics, twinning leaves, or other multi-media junk! What I'm looking for is a tasteful, straightforward information display. White on Black for daylight, Red on Black for night driving would suit me fine.