VERY GOOD NEWS! You MUST read this!

[Derwin]

Well, it seems the breakthrough that we've all been waiting for has arrived.

Here's the news..... (Thanks, Peter, for sending us this link!)

Congress OKs bill making 3-wheelers eligible for funds

Neil Roland (nroland@crain.com)
Automotive News
October 16, 2009 - 2:50 pm ET
UPDATED: 10/17/09 6:44 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON -- A bill to make fuel-efficient three-wheeled vehicles eligible for federal funding now available to automakers and their suppliers has passed Congress and is headed to the White House for President Barack Obama's signature.

Obama is expected to sign the legislation, a White House spokeswoman said.


The bill, which would open Energy Department funds to companies such as Aptera Motors and Elio Motors, was passed by the Senate yesterday as part of the energy appropriations bill after being approved by the House.
“This is a huge win for scientific innovation and the environment,” said Rep. Brian Bilbray, R-Calif., a co-sponsor of the original bill. “We need more innovation and less regulation when it comes to promoting new ways to save energy while saving money at the pump.”


The legislation has been criticized by General Motors Co. (http://www.autonews.com/section/stocklink&link=www.automotivenews.idmanagedsolutions.com%2fw ww%2fquote.html%3FSYMBOL%3DGMGMQ) The company has said the Energy Department's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Incentive Program is intended for large automakers that make many cars and whose technology will help save large amounts of gasoline.


GM spokesman Greg Martin declined comment today. GM has applied for three Energy Department loans totaling $10 billion.


Possible borrowers
Aptera plans to begin mass production of its plug-in electric vehicle, called 2e, in the middle of next year. CEO Paul Wilbur has said the company wants to borrow $75 million from the Energy Department.
The Vista, Calif., company's electric vehicle will be able to go at least 100 miles on an electric charge, Wilbur has said.


Elio plans to start marketing a narrow, gasoline-powered three-wheeler by the spring of 2011. The Tempe, Ariz., company expects to start marketing an 83-mpg vehicle for under $7,500 by the spring of 2011, owner Paul Elio has said.


The legislation would overturn Energy Department rules that limit funding to any four-wheeled vehicle that meets certain emissions and fuel-economy requirements.
It would expand eligibility for the loan program to fully enclosed vehicles that are designed to carry at least two adults and that average at least 75 mpg.


The Energy Department also would have to reconsider applications filed last year that were rejected because the vehicles didn't qualify. The agency has awarded more than $8 billion of the advanced technology loans this year.


White House spokeswoman Amy Brundage did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

[MikeB]

Ok Derwin, I know you call the guys at Persu from time to time, it looks like you've got a couple new questions to ask:

Are they working on a DoE loan under the new rules?

If they did get a reasonable sized loan ($20M?), what would the timeline look like for production?

[wireman]

Ok Derwin, I know you call the guys at Persu from time to time, it looks like you've got a couple new questions to ask:

Are they working on a DoE loan under the new rules?

If they did get a reasonable sized loan ($20M?), what would the timeline look like for production?
Hey D! Do call the Persu guys (first)! Enquiring minds want to know. Since PM has been off the radar the longest, they're the ones we need to hear from mostest! I also want to know if Howard L. had a part to play in the process of the bill.

Give a shout to Rev/Mo afterward and see what Ben has to say also. I think this is a great (and way past due) step forward, as long as unintended consequences are minimal. I don't like to think of government control of our pet vehicles, but the money's there, and in these times it may be the only way to git er' done.

[MVRacing]

Derwin!! Uhgg, not at all what I was expecting :confused:

LOL, guess I was just tooo hopeful =y:

[Derwin]

Derwin!! Uhgg, not at all what I was expecting :confused:

LOL, guess I was just tooo hopeful =y:

What were you expecting? du:n:n:o(

I think this is FANTASTIC news for all three wheel enthusiasts, and especially all fans of the Persu Hybrid.

I'll try to find out if Persu is going to apply for these funds. Hopefully they will, but you never know.

Derwin

[rickb]

Wireman...........you are giving Howard way to much credit by assuming he had something to do with this bill. It is more likely to be companies that are sharing information with their potential customer base and have actual production vehicles ready to hit the ground running............ like Aptera Motors. Howard would be in the public spotlight by taking some Persu Mobility credit if he had been involved.

Derwin reporting that PM isn't applying for Dept. of Energy Funds..........would mean bad news for Persu Hybrid enthusiasts.

[pharuan]

Oh ho! Good news indeed! I cannot wait to get more information.

[wireman]

Wireman...........you are giving Howard way to much credit by assuming he had something to do with this bill. It is more likely to be companies that are sharing information with their potential customer base and have actual production vehicles ready to hit the ground running............ like Aptera Motors. Howard would be in the public spotlight by taking some Persu Mobility credit if he had been involved.

As Howard WAS strongly involved with the earliest lobbying efforts to this end, it seems likely to me that he has to be at least periphrially involved now. I agree that the companies who are closest to production release were probably the main movers, but logicaly H.L. would be in the crowd for PM to represent their interest.

[Derwin]

As Howard WAS strongly involved with the earliest lobbying efforts to this end, it seems likely to me that he has to be at least periphrially involved now. I agree that the companies who are closest to production release were probably the main movers, but logically H.L. would be in the crowd for PM to represent their interest.


I would have to agree with you on this one.

Howard was instrumental in getting earlier legislation passed that has affected the entire industry. So I don't think it's a stretch to say that he may have had something to do with this legislation also.

Derwin

[wireman]

Yeah Derwin, SO! what's it gonna take to get the little twerp to talk! rickb is right about one thing for sure, and that is that even in a minor role as far as the bill is concerned he should be TALKING TO US about it!

[Derwin]

Yeah Derwin, SO! what's it gonna take to get the little twerp to talk! rickb is right about one thing for sure, and that is that even in a minor role as far as the bill is concerned he should be TALKING TO US about it!


Hey, I'm with you on that, brother! But Howard never made a big deal (or even mentioned!) the legislation that he got passed initially, so I'm really not surprised if he decides not to talk about this..... even IF he had anything to do with it.

I've called the company (Phil Oseas) several times, but still no response. du:n:n:o(

Derwin

[rickb]

Yeah Derwin, SO! what's it gonna take to get the little twerp to talk! rickb is right about one thing for sure, and that is that even in a minor role as far as the bill is concerned he should be TALKING TO US about it!

That is exactly what I'm talkin about................it would have been such good PR for PM & created such a positve awareness about the Persu Hybrid had he been involved with this Bill. Even with no involvement, I just don't understand the silence.

[Derwin]

That is exactly what I'm talkin about................it would have been such good PR for PM & created such a positve awareness about the Persu Hybrid had he been involved with this Bill. Even with no involvement, I just don't understand the silence.

Wait. How do you know that Howard has had "no involvement" with this bill? You may be correct, but I am interested in how you know. Or is it just a WAG?

Derwin

[rickb]

Wait. How do you know that Howard has had "no involvement" with this bill? You may be correct, but I am interested in how you know. Or is it just a WAG?

Derwin
Secret involvement in such an important Bill for the development of three wheelers just doesn't make any sense when all the other companies are using it as a positive PR boost to advertise their vehicles. Silence is a very poor marketing strategy in a competitive market to see who gets their vehicles to the masses first. PM is in a Company category that has spent less than $10,000 on lobbying efforts. More than likely with their track record ...way less, but just a WAG.

[Derwin]

Secret involvement in such an important Bill for the development of three wheelers just doesn't make any sense....

I absolutely agree with you, rick. But it is a FACT that Howard played a crucial role in getting previous legislation passed pertaining to this category of vehicle, and has NOT publicized it. Did it make since not to make a big deal of his past efforts? No. But that was the case then, and could well be the case now.

But, hey, I have NO "inside information" about any of this at all.

Derwin

[rickb]

I absolutely agree with you, rick. But it is a FACT that Howard played a crucial role in getting previous legislation passed pertaining to this category of vehicle, and has NOT publicized it. Did it make since not to make a big deal of his past efforts? No. But that was the case then, and could well be the case now.

But, hey, I have NO "inside information" about any of this at all.

Derwin
How I wish you did have inside info. My recollection of Howard's past involvement in legislation was dealing with State licensing requirements for enclosed three wheelers? Did that pass and is it now uniform from State to State or just California. I suspect it is still an individual State issue but maybe he helped pave the way for other States which is a good thing..........but we still knew about it. It really is not so much an issue of who that is so important rather that it did happen and we need to credit those people involved in making it happen. Have you contacted PM?

I hope Howard is busy with more important matters like getting the tarp off the Persu Hybrid so we can finally see it.

[waboom]

But it is a FACT that Howard played a crucial role in getting previous legislation passed pertaining to this category of vehicle, and has NOT publicized it. Did it make since not to make a big deal of his past efforts? No. But that was the case then, and could well be the case now.

But, hey, I have NO "inside information" about any of this at all.

Derwin

Howard actually did publicize it, Derwin - he gave the interview to the Sacremento Bee (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=447) about the California carpool restriction law when he was working on lobbying for it. Also, after it was passed, they did publicize their work (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=675) on it again. And while I don't have any direct evidence to back it up, I'm pretty sure Howard was not involved in this legislation. Why? Because the only company mentioned in any newspaper article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125288146359206959.html) or web post (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/03/apteras-chances-of-getting-doe-loan-money-improving/) about this legislation- or even the co-sponsering Congressman's press release (http://schiff.house.gov/HoR/CA29/Newsroom/Press+Releases/2009/House+Passes+Schiff+Bilbray+Measure+to+Expand+Dome stic+Fuel+Efficient+Car+Technology.htm) - is Aptera. Just the fact that Congressman Schiff specifically mentions Aptera leads me to believe they were the driving force behind the legislation, not Howard. Could Howard have made a call or two about it, making Persu's case & lobbying for passage? He certainly might have, but I agree that if you end up doing that kind of action, you make noise in the press about it.

This legislation is only good news for Persu if they actually apply for a loan through the program. If they don't end up applying for a loan under the DOE program, then it's a pretty safe bet Howard or Persu didn't do any lobbying for this legislation.

[waboom]

How I wish you did have inside info. My recollection of Howard's past involvement in legislation was dealing with State licensing requirements for enclosed three wheelers? Did that pass and is it now uniform from State to State or just California. I suspect it is still an individual State issue but maybe he helped pave the way for other States which is a good thing..........but we still knew about it. It really is not so much an issue of who that is so important rather that it did happen and we need to credit those people involved in making it happen. Have you contacted PM?

I hope Howard is busy with more important matters like getting the tarp off the Persu Hybrid so we can finally see it.

The specific legislation that Howard was lobbying for in 2008 was for the State of California to allow 3-wheeled, enclosed vehicles weighing more than 1,500 pounds to travel in the carpool lanes with only a single occupant. It passed the legislature and was signed into law by the Governor in October 2008.

[Derwin]

Howard actually did publicize it, Derwin - he gave the interview to the Sacremento Bee (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=447) about the California carpool restriction law when he was working on lobbying for it. Also, after it was passed, they did publicize their work (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=675) on it again.

Well, there you go. I was under the impression that they did NOT make a "big deal" about Howards involvement in the legislation.


Could Howard have made a call or two about it, making Persu's case & lobbying for passage? He certainly might have, but I agree that if you end up doing that kind of action, you make noise in the press about it.

I agree. But considering his PAST work in getting legislation passed, I thought it was a good bet that he had at least a tiny bit to do with this. But, as I said, I have no idea one way or the other. I presume there's a way to find out who was pushing for this new legislation, right?


This legislation is only good news for Persu if they actually apply for a loan through the program. If they don't end up applying for a loan under the DOE program, then it's a pretty safe bet Howard or Persu didn't do any lobbying for this legislation.

Well, here's a good question.... If this legislation does indeed get signed, and three wheel vehicles can apply for this money.... AND PERSU DOES NOT TRY TO GET ANY.... What do you think would be the reason for them NOT applying for any funds? (A scary thought in my mind!)

Derwin

[MikeB]

Well, here's a good question.... If this legislation does indeed get signed, and three wheel vehicles can apply for this money.... AND PERSU DOES NOT TRY TO GET ANY.... What do you think would be the reason for them NOT applying for any funds? (A scary thought in my mind!)

I think it would all boil down to the terms of the actual DoE loan vs whatever Persu thinks they can get from a venture capital group or other partnership. A simple loan will have a repayment schedule, perhaps 5 years, which means that Persu must start being profitable in that time (or raise other money). And the DoE loan will have specific restrictions, you can only use the money for certain tasks, like R&D, but actual production might require another source of funding. (The Tesla loan was aimed specifically at battery/drivetrain development, didn't go for work on the existing Tesla Roadster)

On the other hand, a venture capital firm will essentially buy a fraction of the company, which imposes no such deadline. You don't have to pay back a venture capital group with cash, you just have to become valuable enough that they can eventually sell out. Companies can go public long before they make a big profit, if their business model looks strong enough.

And a partnership would be entirely different as well, since the partner presumably would bring in extra assets, such as engineering expertise and manufacturing capability. A partner might not want to add extra debt to it's books, depending on how much debt and cash they currently have.

Each model has it's advantages and disadvantages, and I can see valid arguments for not applying for the loan right away.

[rickb]

I think if PM had access to additional venture capital or other partnership there would be visible signs of progress over dead silence and would be the best option over Federal loans.

My "new theory" is that PM has the Persu Hybrid built, tested, and under wrap. The reason for the silence is that even though the vehicle is ready for production the money for production and production facilities simply isn't available at present. I don't think it would be wise of PM to provide any info or even a glimpse of the production vehicle until production plans and facilities are in place. With that said they could use Dept. of Energy loans to finance production. If they don't apply for any DoE funding, I too will wonder what that means.

[MikeB]

I think if PM had access to additional venture capital or other partnership there would be visible signs of progress over dead silence and would be the best option over Federal loans.
I think they don't yet have access to additional venture capital or a partnership, but they are in the middle of the media silence that happens while such things are being negotiated. Becoming eligible for a DoE loan would clearly change the potential terms of the negotiation, and might actually have been holding things up.

If that was the case, then I'd expect some sort of movement in about a month or two, since that's about the minimum time it would take to get a loan proposal looked at by the DoE. Being rejected for a loan could force them to accept poor terms on alternative money, being accepted for a loan might allow them to get more favorable terms.

And there are always wildcard events out there, like the certification of EESTOR power units, that could make a potential deal more or less attractive. We don't know who Persu has chosen to be their battery or motor suppliers, and those are critical business relationships to negotiate. A money deal might be contingent on a final contract for such suppliers, and the speed of such deals could be largely outside of Persu's hands.

I think you may be right that the engineering is largely done, but the business side is holding things up.

[rickb]

MikeB............Thanks for that insight and I agree that there are things holding up the process requiring total silence. However, it has been a "year long" negotiating process which may or may not have resulted in a deal but an agreement with partners and/or suppliers should have been reached in that time frame. If the engineering is done, the partners/suppliers are in place or at least close, then maybe it is money for production planning and facilities holding things up. I was hoping the partner (if there is one) was on the production side. I hope you are right about things being outside of PM's hands then we know they have done everything possible to get the PH into the production cycle and into our driveways. DoE Loans could help.

[cobraphx]

The Department of Energy (DOE) is charged with administering the section 136 program, known as the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program (ATVM). You can find the full document here: http://www.atvmloan.energy.gov/keydocs/finalrule.pdf

Here are a couple things necessary to obtain funding, The first may be the hardest for Persu to meet, not sure they have 20% of the cost of a factory set aside:

Under the interim final rule, the
Federal loan may only constitute up to
80% of a project’s cost. Section 611.102
sets forth the types of costs the
Department will consider to be eligible
project costs—i.e., costs for which grant
or loan proceeds may be expended.

Section 136 directs the Secretary to
make certain determinations with regard
to applicants for direct loans. First, the
Secretary must determine that the
applicant is ‘‘financially viable without
the receipt of additional Federal funding
associated with the proposed project [.]’’

Section 136 prescribes certain specific
terms for loan documents. First, the
statute establishes that the loans will
have an interest rate that, ‘‘as of the date
on which the loan is made, is equal to
the cost of funds to the Department of
the Treasury for obligations of
comparable maturity[.]’’

The statute also states that loans may
be subject to a deferral in repayment for
‘‘not more than 5 years after the date on
which the eligible project carried out
using funds from the loan first begins
operations, as determined by the
Secretary[.]’’