GM continues to go with hydrogen models

[jmeineck]

http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/08/cadillac-provoq-fuel-cell-e-flex-concept/

Here is a new anoucement about the Chey Volts bigger cousin, Cadillac provoq on anothe Hydrogen Flex fuel platform. I guess I just don't get the reasoning behind that decision since there is no fueling infrastructure for hydrogen.:rolleyes::eek::confused:

[PHEVadvocate]

I guess that is what is going to happen when they transferred all of the fuel cell R&D engineers to the Volt program. Too bad they didn’t have a couple of hundred battery engineers instead. I just want to cry when I think of all the money, time and resources, that have been wasted on Fuel cells. A car based on a hydrogen fuel cell system will never be as energy efficient as a good battery based system by about a factor of 2. You still need batteries to start a fuel cell car and run it until the fuel cell warms up. Fuel Cells are also a lot more expensive and traces of the wrong chemicals in the hydrogen or in the air can poison the fuel cell and make it worthless. A fuel cell based car has a lot of problems that you don’t have with a battery based car! Fuel cell cars are just a public relations stunt by car companies trying to convince us they are the technology leader. The engineers figured out fuel cell cars were a dead horse years ago, but by that time fuel cell research was a big industry with a big lobby.

[jmeineck]

PHEVadvocate,

I agree what a waste of talent. The more manufacturers designing sensiable PHEV's for the market the better off this world will be. Not everyone is going to want to buy a V1, but I hope everyone will buy some kind of green vehicle and sooner rather than later:-)

[rogwild]

Yes, I agree that Fuel Cells are nowhere near ready for PRIME TIME, and that PHEV's will be the next 'near solution'.:IDEA: But think where we would be if the ICE engineers (at the end of the 19th century) had said, "This will never be viable, there is no 'gasoline infrastructure' and it needs a battery (or crank) to start it!"........=n:
Still shoveling Horse $hit off our roads and 'filling up' at the local Feed Store:LOL:.

[jmeineck]

Good point rogwild! It could be they find a major break through in hydrogen technology that changes evrything.

But still it would be nice if they would have planned an earlier battery model while they perfected the fuel cell.:-) So I'm personal very happy that VV has the V1 in design.

[PHEVadvocate]

It is all going to boil down to which system is more efficient and practical. The theoretical maximum efficiency of a battery based passenger car transportation system is higher than a Hydrogen Fuel Cell one, so batteries win when energy gets expensive.

We do need a battery breakthrough in the area of cathode energy density, which is closer than all the breakthroughs and engineering that is needed to make a hydrogen fuel cell car practical.

See: http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209

[jmeineck]

PHEVadvocate,

No one is disagreeing with you on that point.

The only thing rogwild pointed out is that hydrogen R&D should continue and I agree with that also.

[PHEVadvocate]

Jeff and rog,

I agree that hydrogen R&D should continue, but not at the current rate. I think we need to shift the bulk of the automotive fuel cell funding to advanced battery research and development. We need batteries to take advantage of the surplus electricity generation we have at night. If 87% of the passenger cars were electric right now, we could recharge them at night with our current power grid according to our government. The problem is that we need to start selling BEV’s (Battery Electric Vehicles) and PHEV’s (like the V1) right now to have any hope of getting to that 87% level in the next 10 to 15 years.

[rogwild]

"we need to start selling BEV’s (Battery Electric Vehicles) and PHEV’s (like the V1) right now".........unfortunately, I don't know of any "RIGHT NOW".......so?

I also do not know the 'current rate' of hydrogen R&D vs. advanced battery research (perhaps you can 'enlighten us' with some factual data), but I doubt that my personal feelings would have much effect on them anyway.

I stand 100% behind my above statement.

[PHEVadvocate]

Hello Rogwild,

Here are two links showing the Hydrogen fuel cell budget $213 million and the PHEV/advanced battery budget $20 million. Their may be more money buried somewhere, but this is what I know about.

http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/h2_fy08_budget_request_briefing.pdf (http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/h2_fy08_budget_request_briefing.pdf) See slide 13 for the fuel cell technology information.

http://www.doe.gov/news/5523.htm (http://www.doe.gov/news/5523.htm) See the press release for what is spent on PHEV’s and advance batteries.

Here is the information about overnight charging, I was wrong it is only 84% of the nation’s cars pickup trucks and SUV’s (bad memory).

http://www.pnl.gov/energy/eed/etd/pdfs/phev_feasibility_analysis_combined.pdf (http://www.pnl.gov/energy/eed/etd/pdfs/phev_feasibility_analysis_combined.pdf) See the summary on page 16.

Here is a BEV you can buy now, but it isn't as cool as a Venture one: http://www.myersmotors.com/index.html (http://www.myersmotors.com/index.html)

The reason we have to start selling cars the cars now, came from Ted Bohn of Argonne National Laboratory Center for Transportation Research. He said, it takes about 10 years for a new car to leave the transportation system. I haven’t found a online quote for this one yet.

I tried to use government or web resources, where I could. I'll try to post a link on fuel cell versus battery efficiency soon. I'm looking for a goverment paper not a private one.

Have you Watched "Who Killed the Electric Car"? It is where the Forget Hydrogen, Forget Hydrogen, Forget Hydrogen line came from.

[rogwild]

Thanks, for the info.
Well, for a Meyers Motors, "Sparrow" or whatever they are now calling it, at 1/2 the seating, almost TWICE the cost and with less performance/economy, it is NOT a BEV that "I" can/will BUY NOW, nor a TANGO or a TESLA. Just don't see ANY options NOW in a BEV or PHEV that would meet my needs/budget for a replacement for a 'Daily Driver'.

[PHEVadvocate]

Hello All,

As promised here are some more links that explain why a Hydrogen Fuel cell is not well suited for automotive applications. The first link is really the summary of the second link, which has more technical details. The third link talks about fuel cells and it does have some efficiency information. The forth link is a link to a book at Amazon.com.

http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html

http://www.efcf.com/reports/E21.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

http://www.amazon.com/Hype-About-Hydrogen-Fiction-Climate/dp/1559637048/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200007721&sr=8-1

[PHEVadvocate]

I agree with you Rogwild, that there is nothing practical we can purchase right now. :(
I believe the Venture One will be the first practical Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle and Battery Electric Vehicle. =y:

I just wish their was something we could do to make it be sooner than later. :)

[AZEqualizer]

Just be glad it is a motorcycle rather than a car... then the wait would be much longer.
But yea I would like one yesterday as well.

[PHEVadvocate]

Here is a link about companies leaving the hydrogen highway:

http://www.dailynews.com/search/ci_7926303?IADID=Search-

[Billy]

PH, that's GREAT news for battery develoment!!=y: Maybe somebody will wake up, and demand pure EV's again.. Maybe GM will make the EV2, but I highly doubt it. They couldn't be that smart..:o

[PHEVadvocate]

http://teslafounders.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/getting-from-here-to-there/

In the second paragraph he implies fuel cell = fool cell.

[jmeineck]

Now that's a great article and something I have been arguing with my Co-workers about for months. All of the guys I work with want everything to switch over to pure electric right now!!! Having an intermediate stage of REEV vehicles just make sense. The one thing that I agree with the most about in that article is that no matter how much we hate GM, if the big car manufacturer gets into PHEV's for real they have the bigest chance to create change.....

[PHEVadvocate]

This is a interesting article:

http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid=2239.php

Michael Berger, Nanowerk LLC claims:

"... DOE's Hydrogen Energy Roadmap foresees up to 90% of hydrogen production coming from fossil fuels – coal, gas, oil – the rest mostly from nuclear power plants (why do you think the oil companies are investing hundreds of millions of dollars into hydrogen technology?). In other words: although hydrogen fuel cell cars themselves may emit nothing but water and heat, the process of powering the fuel cells with hydrocarbons will continue the economy's dependence on fossil fuels and leave behind carbon dioxide (sequestered or not), the primary cause of global warming."
:eek:

Since battery powered or ultra cap cars are about 3 to 4 more times energy efficient than a hydrogen based ones, skipping hydrogen means we use significantly less fossil fuels.

[PHEVadvocate]

Ok here is some positive news on hydrogen, that might help solve the fossil fuel problem. It does have the potential to make hydrogen generation efficient, but it is still too early to tell.

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/20134/?nlid=845

Basically, hydrogen direct from water and sunlight. Even it they get this worked out in a few years, it is only one of severial problems they have to solve.

[PHEVadvocate]

I don't know, if I totally agree with The Nuclear Conspiracy Theory, but this article does have some interesting information.

http://zfacts.com/p/285.html

[Tecno]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Although producing hydrogen with current technology is far from a green solution, algae has a lot of promise.

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=19438&ch=specialsections&sc=biofuels&pg=2

I also remember something about doing some sort of special algae setup that used a small electric current and that stimulated the algae and dramatically increased hydrogen output (far more than the electricity being put in). I can't seem to find it right now, mainly because Algae and renewable fuels brings up a lot of biodiesel references.

[PHEVadvocate]

Here is another breakthrough for Hydrogen, but I also like the fact that they are making advanced electrodes for batteries too.

http://www.qsinano.com/news/newsletters/2008_02/f1.php

http://www.qsinano.com/news/newsletters/2008_02/video.php

[Miracleman89]

Hydrogen is just one more way for big industry to control fuel costs and keep us down!

[PHEVadvocate]

Here is an interesting Wall Street Journal article, Batteries Rule!=y:

Top executives from General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. Tuesday expressed doubts about the viability of hydrogen fuel cells....

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120468405514712501.html

.

[RAN]

Will sanity actually win out in this battle? There's hope yet for mankind....

[cobraphx]

The whole hydrogen as a fuel movement is only the movement because of who has the most to gain. If you look around, you'll see that 95% of the hydrogen in the US is made through the process of steam reforming of Natural Gas. The carbon in Natural gas is removed and released as carbon monoxide, not a carbon neutral process. If the oil companies can get us using hydrogen, they have the most to gain in the short term. And because they would need to build a new fuel transportation network, they could get tax breaks and grants to build new stations and pipelines. Also keep in mind that hydrogen evaporates at the rate of 5% per day when stored as liquid (the most efficient way to transport it) due to the extreme temperature required. guess who pays for evaporation loses at the pump?

Hydrogen and fuel cells make a lot of sense for the airlines, shipping, and NASA, for the rest of us, the future is direct electricity.

[Derwin]

I just hope "they" do something to fix the problem of our reliance on oil, and the strangle-hold that it has on our country. On a personal note.....My brother and I just got back from Indianapolis, Indiana yeserday. I live near Joliet, Illinois, and he lives in Romeoville. It's about a 3 hour ride, and it took $120 to go there and back! The price for Diesel was $3.85 a gallon when we got back, and we were going to stop and get gas, but thought we would wait until this morning. Well, we went to the gas station this morning (the same one!), and the price of diesel went up to $4.20 a gallon.......OVERNIGHT!!

Does anybody recall the days when diesel gas was actually CHEAPER than regular? What happened? Why is diesel MORE expensive now?

Anyway, needless to say, we need alternative fuel choices. And as long as gas prices keep going up like this, I think we are destined to see them.

Derwin

[RAN]

I just hope "they" do something to fix the problem of our reliance on oil, and the strangle-hold that it has on our country.

Derwin, "they're" the ones who *created* out reliance on oil in the 1st place.

[cpaddock]

Whoa! I just spilled my guts in lengthy, well thought out message only to have it evaporate into cyber space. I DID log in or I couldn't be writing in this box! Arghhhhh!
Is there a time limit or something? This is really frustrating and not the first time it has happened to me on this
forum....any suggestions?
Thanks!

[Derwin]

cpaddock,

Yeah, that has happened to me a couple times, and I wanted to pull my hair out! I always HIGHLIGHT AND COPY whatever message I wrote BEFORE I press the "post" button. I do this JUST IN CASE something like that happens. I learned the hard way after losing all that I had just written. It is really aggravating, but if you copy what you wrote BEFORE posting it, you can then go back and PASTE it up again if something happens. That's the best advice I can give you, but maybe somebody else has something that would work better.

Derwin

[rogwild]

How about composing your post in 'Notepad' or 'Wordpad' then posting (cut/paste) it in the [message] area. I've had to do this on my email program since it sometimes 'logs off' if I leave the computer. Haven't 'lost' one on this forum.....YET.

[Luigi78]

I get the impression, and understand the arguments, that hydrogen fuel cells are not preferred (at least in this forum).
However, since I'm not up to speed, I wanted to ask about concerns with using batteries as an alternative to hydrogen.
Aren't there a multitude of issues with regards to the toxic materials used in battery production? What is the current state of battery technology with regards to its toxicity and/or recyclability?

[Derwin]

Welcome to the club, Luigi78!

This club forum is for talking about ALL forms of alternative fuels. We have even brought up some systems and ideas that are not really main-stream, and mostly experimental at this point. I don't want you to think that this club is "officially" against hydrogen fuel cells, or any other type of energy source. There are those members that prefer one over the other, but it is just all conjecture and opinion. Please feel free to add YOUR opinoin to the forum. This is what the club is all about!

Derwin

[PHEVadvocate]

Hello Luigi78,

I’m not really Antihydrogen, I’m Probattery! =D

Hydrogen research is fine, but we should be spending at least as much on advanced battery research as we do on hydrogen research.

They way it currently looks battery vehicles (BEV’s and PHEV’s) are a closer more practical solutions than hydrogen vehicles. Li-ion batteries only need an advanced Cathode miracle, while hydrogen needs a whole set of miracles and a whole new infrastructure.

Hydrogen may never catch up and be as energy efficient, cost effective, or safe as batteries in a vehicle! So, let's put the money where we will get the most out of and the fastest return on our investment!=y:

[PHEVadvocate]

Another Good Hydrogen Article, backed by science:

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-hydrogen-hoax

[MVRacing]

Another Good Hydrogen Article, backed by science:


Very good!!! Thanks

[RAN]

A couple years ago, when I didn't know any better, I bought into the hydrogen BS. When I started getting serious about alternative forms of clean energy and actually read up on it, it took about 15 minutes to realize that hydrogen is a lousy alternative.
Simply put, it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than you get back from using it. When you add in all the expense involved in transporting and storing it, you'd have to be nuts (or a politician, or someone who will benefit from the horribly expensive infrastructure that will be needed) to want to pursue hydrogen as the next thing in clean energy.
If hydrogen were the only alternative open to us, then we'd have to make the best of it. But it isn't.
The new generation of batteries aren't nearly as toxic as the old lead-acid and nickel-cadmium batteries we've been using. They are also much more recyclable. But the real bottom line is this: if you just take the electricity that would be needed to produce enough hydrogen to drive 100 miles and put it straight into a pack of batteries, that same amount of electricity would allow you to go more like 200 miles (that's an estimate off the top of my head; I'm sure PHEV Advocate or others could give a more accurate figure). DUH! And batteries will be much cheaper to manufacture and transport than the hydrogen will. Because hydrogen has the smallest atomic number, and therefore the smallest atoms, it's nearly impossible to store it for any length of time without losing a lot of it to leakage (since the atoms of hydrogen are smaller than anything we can use to contain it).

Does this mean Bush and the Governator and GM are wrong about wanting hydrogen as fuel?

Duh....

[ziggy951]

Not to mention the massive water shortages the world would suffer if we all switched over to hydrogen powered transportation. I have never heard anyone bring this up before. The water supply on Earth at any given time is finite, albeit renewable, and if a large portion is being used to move people around the planet then how much will it cost to drink, grow crops, flush the toilet, etc? You know, all of the unintended consequences that politicians NEVER think about because they are more interested in an agenda and looking like they are doing something than actually solving problems.


Z

[Miracleman89]

Does this mean Bush and the Governator and GM are wrong about wanting hydrogen as fuel?


Seriously, are you surprised???

[PHEVadvocate]

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/08/obama-doe-slash-hydrogen-fuel-cell-funding-in-new-budget/

Advanced batteries are the future and he knows it!:whoohoo:

Take that Greg Blencoe and the hydrogen hucksters!:zap2:

:LOL:

[Mark Tomlinson]

Say what you want about our new President, Steven Chu is brilliant and an excellent choice for the Department of Energy Secretary. There have been long discussion threads over in the TeslaMotorsClub about him, and most - if not all - are impressed with his even handed, reality based approach. It was just a matter of time before the hydrogen hucksters were called on the carpet.

[PHEVadvocate]

A interesting British view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AQAjyY6hMc

How true is it?