Design Modifications

[rogwild]

Well here is 'First Rough Cut' at a "D+" model with the lower driver 'sills' and allowing for a more 'airy and open' ride. I need to do some 'tweaking' on the door/'B' pillar to allow the entire window to roll down (working it). Had to add the 'C' pillar to allow for a passenger 'vent' [removable] window, and a 'liftable' rear hatch. Hope to 'publish' some other views of it with DW (driver's window) down, PW (passenger's window) 'vented'/removed, rear 'hatch' raised (for extended cargo/loading), and a 'convertible' with sunroof panel removed, 'hatch' off, and all windows open; in a couple/few days.

[rogwild]

Here is D+ Mod'B', with the door modified.
Shown with the driver's windows down, the front 1/2 of the sunroof panel slid to the rear (with the forward 'wind deflector' raised--driver's 'air' mode). It also shows the 'rear hatch' lifted to the open position for loading gear, or 'long loads'.

In the present configuration, the rear hatch will encounter the fixed rear spoiler (not work as shown). Solutions could be: 1) remove/delete the rear wing/spoiler, 2) reconfigure the 'spoiler' so the hatch can open with it fixed, 3) design the 'spoiler to rotate backwards 20* to open the hatch, then rotate back into position and 'latch' for driving. This would also act as a 'safety' to prevent the hatch from opening while driving.

Next view will be with the passenger 'vent' windows removed, and the rear 1/2 of the sunroof panel slid 'forward'. (passenger 'air' mode)

The final view will be the 'convertible' with all windows open/removed, sunroof panel removed, and the rear 'hatch' removed.

[rogwild]

Here are the 'final' two. The Passenger 'air' mode (when the passenger had too much Mexican food last night):mad:
And the 'convertible mode', not very 'aero' but great for Sunday pleasure drives.

[rogwild]

(Note; on the 'Wind Deflectors') :IDEA: As in many vehicles with sliding/retracting sun roofs, the wind deflectors can be made to 'pop-up' when the roof is opened, 'locked' in the down position, or removed altogether if not desired.=y: (Just in case, someone does not like them, and thinks they make the V-1 look 'Dorky').:confused:

[jmeineck]

rogwild,

I think the wind defectors was a nice touch:) and I agree, on a new sunny afternoon crusen with the windows down or out you aren't really worried about aerodynamics:cool:

[Billy]

I had a thought, you guys have produced some really great ideas for the body of the car, but how about a new challenge.. Anybody up for it? How about some ideas for the instrument cluster/yoke/HUD's?

[tugboatwilly]

Pat. What happens if the navigator has to use her ejector seat button as well?
Willy

[AZEqualizer]

I'm putting this here separately to make this more visible.

When the question of design preference comes up, it is only fair, since the crossing of the two designs has come up, to try to visually portray what that might look like. I've done a crude mixing of the two to try to give this impression (for convenience, I'm calling this the "CXD" design).
http://www.newagequest.com/VV/CXD.jpg
http://www.newagequest.com/VV/CXD.jpg

By the way, I think that most would agree that this design comes closest to the "ideal" V1 shown on the homepage.

At this time I put this up (and put a corresponding post in the vote topic), I'd counted about 30 votes for D, 15 for the CXD idea, and 12 for the C.

I think this shows that about half everyone liked the sleek, sporty D, and about half wanted the more windowy (and perhaps more comfortable-looking) C or CXD. I'm lumping the C and CXD together at this point because I don't think that everyone who voted for C has seen (or fully visualized) the CXD. I suspect that most of them would prefer the CXD to the C. (But, that is just my guess, since I haven't heard anyone exclaiming for joy about the nose of the C!).
{Posted: 2008-01-08 taomaster}

[Bladerunner]

Still looks like a pregnant guppy with a nose job (maybe a DL pacer mated with a D model). May be it would look a little better if the window bottom came straight across. And get rid of the jaundice eyes where the headlights are supposed to go.

[jmeineck]

taomaster did a really nice job of croping that picture together.

I still like D better than CXD, but after looking at all 3 photo's in the browser flipping back and forth I like C better than CXD. The top line of the D nose just doesn't look right with the top line of the C version.

[jmeineck]

I've been looking at the CXD picture and if we could change the driver window top line to flow in a more direct line down to the nose without lowering the top of the vehicle it might get rid of the pregnant guppy look and that would win me over to the C version. That would also change the arc line of the windshield!!!

[PHEVadvocate]

Taomaster I added a body line to the front of your image, what do you think? I wish I was better at this.

165

[AZEqualizer]

Travisty over at FTR cleaned taomaster composit up some and came up with this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/toffty/CXDv2.jpg

[Miracleman89]

Hey good job travisty! I still prefer D but like I have said many other times I will take what ever Ian and the Gang produce!!!

[Mark Tomlinson]

Now that I like!

I got a good enough idea with Taomaster's photo, but this clinches it. CxD for me.

[jmeineck]

travisty did a great job on the photo conversion. But the arching side window line still throws the look off. If that was changed (I mean by the VV design team, I'm not asking any member to waste time do this modification) it would look like the D nose belonged on the C body.

[PHEVadvocate]

This is a winner! =y:

Travisty's CXDv2 is now my computer's desktop background. :)

I can't wait to see Ian's version!=D

[AZEqualizer]

JJA posted this on the FTR site.

I was curiouse to see what D would look like if some of the objections that have been mentioned were addressed, specifically increasing the headroom, lowering the window sill and reducing the powerpod's size. See what you think.

If you follow the link there are 3 versions, each with a different powerpod.

[jmeineck]

I would like to take a look at the pictures but the links are broken

[randi]

Curious, I can't see the links at all.

[AZEqualizer]

Interesting they went away.. I will load them direct instead of reference them.

[randi]

Thanks, Aze.

For sheer style and grace, D--as is, off the artist's pad--pretty much does it for me. I love the high windows, the lower transparent panel, the sleek, long, sloping nose.

The darn thing is beautiful!

Oh, and I'd love it in that silvery grey tint that'll match anything and go anywhere.:cool:

[AZEqualizer]

Yea randi that is why the 'Superman' colored 3D rendering (above) is my desktop background. I look at it and go ... WOW ... I can see me Carving around in that!!!

[randi]

Me, too!

I just really wish VV can deploy these with cameras instead of outside windows--sleek as a bullet slicing through space. (Feel sorry for Jeff Dunham driving the blue Prius.) =y:;)

I don't mind the wait--more time to put those $$$$$ away.

[PHEVadvocate]

randi, I would like to loose the mirrors too. I saw several aftermarket modifications like Billy’s Honda Insight at Hybridfest. Look closely at the video, the car has no side mirrors.
http://www.podtech.net/home/3725/meet-hypermiler-bill-kinney

Coastal Electronics was selling kits at Hybridfest too: www.CoastalEtech.com

[AZEqualizer]

Sorry but until the Fed's get their act together on a uniform rule regulating rear view devices can mean things other than mirrors on motorcycles there are a significant amount of States that require one or more rear view mirrors for motorcycles including 3 wheeled enclosed motorcycles.

[randi]

I had the impression that the California code is "flawed," might this be allowed--if I promise not to drive out of state, scout's honor?=D

[Billy]

So Randi, you mind a friendly visit from Achmed?=y:

[PHEVadvocate]

I knew some fighter planes had rearview mirrors inside the cockpit. Here is a picture I found on the web:

http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/SFP/images/F-104g%20cockpit.jpg

This should allow us to remove the current side mirrors and keep us legal! :COP:

I would still want a rearview camera. :cool:

From the cockpit to Flying The Road! ;)

Moderators: Feel free to move this to the correct threads.

[rogwild]

I knew some fighter planes had rearview mirrors inside the cockpit.

I know that they work well with 'Bubble type canopies', but not sure how they would work with a 'flatter' style.
It would be a cool, unique feature to have while 'Flying the Road'.......IF IT WORKS.

[Mark Tomlinson]

I knew some fighter planes had rearview mirrors inside the cockpit.I was wondering the same thing. While driving home in my Saturn L series, I noticed that the mirrors could be placed inside the car, tucked in either corner of the front dash, and would provide the same visibility. Better visibility, actually, since they would not be subject to rain and ice.

[AZEqualizer]

Well don't know what the law is in other states but in AZ it is quite ...ah liberal.
ARS 28-964A: A motorcycle, all-terrain vehicle and motor driven cycle shall be equipped with a rearview mirror.

That's it... opens up a lot of options... Don't you think?

[WarpedOne]

>> I knew some fighter planes had rearview mirrors inside the cockpit. Here is a picture I found on the web:

I'm afraid this positioning would hinder forward visibility and we do not want that. Cameras and LCDs are the way to go when the code is finally changed worldwide :mad:

[PHEVadvocate]

When you design a car one of the things you look at is the line of sight for the side mirrors and the rearview mirror. I don’t see why they can’t do the same when they design the cockpit for the V1. If you mount the mirrors on the front posts and do not make them wider than the posts, it should not impair the visibility out of the cockpit. If you do it right it may even be cheaper than outside mirrors. The geometry of the cockpit (still under design) will decide if this can be done. Give it a try Ian; it may only be a small tweak.

[AZEqualizer]

http://www.firmcore.com/photos/C_D_Front.jpg
This is the picture that Jamesomega made on the FTR site.

[Hardtime11]

Jamesomega - Very Nice work. That is sort of what I picture it as of right now.:cool:

My only question to the designers would be is there a blowoff for the wind trapped in the front fender area. The little imitation side scoops following the front lower body would be nice if functional. Just a thought.

[AZEqualizer]

Problem is with this design the window looks like it won't go all the way down since the part that shows is about as big as the rest of the door.

[vancemo]

I was totally inspired by what jamesomega did so here’s my take on a cross between D and C: http://picasaweb.google.com/vancemo/VancemoSRetouchedConceptDEdits

[AZEqualizer]

At the request of a couple of members that couldn't see Vance's pictures I added them to this post - everyone should get a chance to see Vance's hard work.

This was his comment for the first one: "If I could have the vehicle of my dreams, this comes pretty close. I like most of the D body but with the C headlights and propulsion unit."
And for picture number two: "Here's my version of the D with the C propulsion unit."

[AZEqualizer]

I took the Feb 08 C & D and overlayed them on-top of each other then I just erased off the back end of D. I didn't try to clean this up because I wanted to show the two designs merged. It was interesting that their was not a lot of difference and they both overlay nicely.
http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=186&d=1202148859

[mehbasser]

This is what I have been saying all along. I want the D front and the C back. Of course keep the D wings but it is C's rear window and power pod that I prefer over D but I want the rest of D. I would like to see that one pictured!

[jmeineck]

AZEqualizer

I'm starting to get the feeling that both of these designs are going to get rolled out for production???? When I onpen the new drawings in different tab's on the browser, I noticed the same thing. There just isn't that much difference for the out line of each vehicle.

[AZEqualizer]

Yes maybe I can get my wife, who is a wiz at Photoshop, to do the D and just change out the rear window and the powerpod.... Did you notice I erased the D powerpod and sub'd in the one from the C.

[Rpeek2]

Oh Ya, that C/D merge is pretty much what I had in mind. SWEET...

[jmeineck]

Yes AZE I did notice you sub in C's PP. I think putting C's back on D you almost have to use the C PP since D's PP is a little bulky on the top rear line to fit C's back end:-) It looks good but I don't quite know what it is I like D just how it is.

[AZEqualizer]

I like the D with the lower clear panels ... I wouldn't mind the sleeker powerpod fender skirts from the C version on the D. But the thing that is really insightful is how much the C and D are almost exactly the same dimensionally and yet it gives people this big emotional perception difference.

[jmeineck]

AZE="C and D are almost exactly the same dimensionally and yet it gives people this big emotional perception difference."

I know what you mean, I have actually had that conversation with myself while I was flipping back and forth between the two pictures:-) I can't put my finger on it, I know that except for some very small differences these two design will function identically. Yet I'm still drawn to D. Probably because I took such a hard stand on that model during the first voting go round and now I don't want to let it go:-)

[AZEqualizer]

Hardtime has these overlays posted to show how the two vehicles match up.

"Front_sport D over C"
http://img2.putfile.com/main/2/3511005981.jpg

"Front_sport C over D"
http://img2.putfile.com/main/2/3511005944.jpg

"rear_base D over C"
http://img2.putfile.com/main/2/3510432774.jpg

"rear_base C over D"
http://img2.putfile.com/main/2/3510432740.jpg

"front_base D over C"
http://img2.putfile.com/main/2/3510432749.jpg

"front_base C over D"
http://img2.putfile.com/main/2/3510432755.jpg

"D light over C dark"
http://img2.putfile.com/main/2/3421135742.jpg

"C light over D dark gray"
http://img2.putfile.com/main/2/3421135771.jpg

Thanks Hardtime!!

And to further prove the point
The front and rear headroom should be nearly identical in both vehicles.

[AZEqualizer]

How about this version of C for more visibility as well as the “elbow out the window thing”?
{Posted: 2008-02-06 on FTR site by Vancemo}

"C more window_front_base"
http://img2.putfile.com/main/2/3602583331.jpg

"I took the D nose and stuck it on C Not my best work but didnt have much time."
http://img2.putfile.com/main/2/3513263477.jpg

[AZEqualizer]

JJA did this photo overlay between the Carver and the V1
http://flytheroadclub.com/Pics/CarvCD.JPG

Remember the vehicles don't really exactly match up like this as they are of different size (AZE)

[AZEqualizer]

Hardtime Had published his rendition of the Mini overlay on the V1 concept C
http://www.flytheroadclub.com/Pics/mini.jpg

[rogwild]

Thanks, AZE, and Hartime; it does show that the A-1 will have a longer wheelbase, and much 'sleeker' lines, while being basically the same size (profile, height, but not 'WIDTH').

C'mon guys at Vv,.....Git-R-Done!!!

[Derwin]

Wow, this is really great! I didn't realize the V1 would be just as long as the mini. Good overlay, and a great job, fella's!

Derwin

[rogwild]

Shucks, now every time I see a Mini on the road; I'll have to 'visualize' it as 1/2 as wide and 'TILTING' into turns.=y:

[Skemcin]

This is without the Cap - but think of one of those small hot/cold truck bed caps that you see Catering/Pizza companies use.

[Skemcin]

So, I got a little carried away, but someone will have thought of this eventually - so I had to imagine it...

Pretty funny if you ask me.

[Miracleman89]

I like the stretch limo!!!!!:Beer:

[joduddridge]

AZE (well Hardtime acutally as its your overlay),

I'm not sure the overlay of C onto the mini is quite right. On these two:

http://www.flytheroad.com/1_4_07_post/Retouched_Concept_D.jpg
http://www.flytheroad.com/1_4_07_post/Retouched_Concept_C.jpg

which are pre the latest alterations, you can see C is towering above the mini next to it (looks like 6 inches to me). Even the D is taller. The latest alterations have reduced the C's height and increased the D's height (?? D might just have had its window sills lowered). But doesn't this still result in both designs being higher than a mini rather than just under???

Don't mean to be picky as your ability with photoshop (or whatever) is far better than mine!!!!! And I love lots of the images being put togther here!!!!

[rogwild]

"joduddridge", basing your conclusions "C is towering above the mini next to it (looks like 6 inches to me)." upon a photo that due to perspective makes closer objects appear 'larger/taller' and further objects appear 'smaller/shorter' is a bit reckless. Ian has stated that his design criteria guidelines were to keep the V-1 about the height and length of the Mini.
That is the reason that I asked Ian (over a month and half ago) to post new pictures with the two models on either side of the Mini, and give us some head-on shots, overhead views, as well as some rear and more side shots.
Well no 'new' photos from Ian to date. I guess they are too busy, 'rocketing ahead, things happening, all good'; to drag two foam models outside and take a few pictures.

[joduddridge]

Hi Rogwild,

You might be right that it is simply the perspective, and I can remember you asking Ian about it. 'C' just looks a good 6 inches higher than the mini to me, even trying to take in to account the relative positioning of the vehicles in the picture. (Mind you, sometimes I've wondered whether the images of the two designs have been pasted into this picture, as if you flick between the two, their wheels don't move at all and the edges around the VV's look too clean, but perhaps that's me too!!).

Hardtime's overlay looks great, I was just concerned that it might be presenting a much lower (and I guess therefore shorter) relationship than the actual design is.

[jmeineck]

joduddridge,

Photoshop is not a CAD program. hardtime's overlays are best guess with all available information and though I think he did a great job at creating the overlays don't hold it against him if it turns out he got them all wrong:-)

I believe that you are correct in your observation that the C and D designs are taller, though I don't believe that it is 6" it is more like 2" taller and 4" longer.

I actually looked up the dimensions of the mini and posted it in at thread on the VV forum to explain to someone new how big the V1 would be and I believe it was hardtime or AZE would post that the V1 would be a little bit bigger, but not much.

[joduddridge]

Thanks JMEinneck,

Didn't mean to put Hardtime's image down (at all!!). As I say, far better than what I can do!! Just thought the height was a little low.

JME, still think you might be out on the 2 inches heigher, but I'm probably out on the 6 inches too :-)

Out of interest I thought I'd try another way of calculating it (without definitive figures from Ian). You see this picture:

http://www.flytheroad.com/1_4_07_post/88.jpg

This isn't that accurate I know, but the D here is about 80% of Ian's height (discounting a bit for shoes and hair). I seem to remember Ian is 6'2. That makes the D 59(ish) inches high, which is 3 inches higher than a mini. The C design could be even higher...

Still, what the hell... I'm only guessing really... Hardtime, your picture is great. Shame it was of the C design not D though.. :-) Being a D fan myself!!!

[Hardtime11]

Just a little insight to the pictures that I worked with. I used the pictures provided by Ian and did no morphing whatsoever. I have a program (or two) that can snap a grid over and I placed it to one grid box for every 2 inches. Then I layered two pictures over each other using an overlay feature and faded it to a visible level and using the static point of the rear wheel axle (and front wheel axle when involving another Venture Vehicle).

I could of dropped it down to one grid for every half inch or less if I wanted to but I figured it was already pretty close and not to many people can handle that much enlargement on their monitors or print outs even though I did banner a couple to put on my home office wall. :-)

So to my best guess if the pictures were of actual aspect representation they are pretty much dead-on.

;)I was waiting for someone to do a 3D picture so I could change the angle of view and place a jet over/above the venture and have both going forward. I am not a good artist but I am pretty close to dead-on, on line alignment and such.;)

I took no offense to the question of accuracy to my pictures as they are actually not my pictures. :cool:

[Hardtime11]

AZE (well Hardtime acutally as its your overlay),

I'm not sure the overlay of C onto the mini is quite right. On these two:

http://www.flytheroad.com/1_4_07_post/Retouched_Concept_D.jpg
http://www.flytheroad.com/1_4_07_post/Retouched_Concept_C.jpg

which are pre the latest alterations, you can see C is towering above the mini next to it (looks like 6 inches to me). Even the D is taller. The latest alterations have reduced the C's height and increased the D's height (?? D might just have had its window sills lowered). But doesn't this still result in both designs being higher than a mini rather than just under???

Don't mean to be picky as your ability with photoshop (or whatever) is far better than mine!!!!! And I love lots of the images being put togther here!!!!


I actually just grabbed one of the front pictures off of the Mini-Cooper site: http://www.miniusa.com/#/MINIUSA.COM-m and ran with it. I took it as an actual picture referencing real size and used the grid method blowing it up to the actual size given by the miniusa.com site. I then overlayed it over the Venture using the rear axles for alignment. So there could be a little variance via the cooper site but it is theirs. :-)

[PHEVadvocate]

:IDEA:
I used the following picture and assumed the floor tiles are 12" square and got 90 pixels on a side right under the car.

http://www.flytheroad.com/1_4_07_post/19.jpg


Then I counted the pixels straight down from the top of car to a line drawn from the support sitting on the floor, about 380 Pixels.

(380/90)*12= 50.67 inches


I know their is some distortion, but I tried to minimize it.

Anybody got a better count or guess?

[Mark Tomlinson]

Yikes, guys! I'm happy to know it's fairly close to a Mini in height and length.

If I recall, Ian mentioned that the cut-away drawing Hardtime used is actually based on the Carver's dimensions. He assured us the V1 will be very close. So, from there I went to the video of Jeremy Clarkson (Top Gear) driving one and noted that his hair is about an inch short of the ceiling.

Jeremy Clarkson is 6 foot 4 inches. That makes it big enough for me.

[jmeineck]

joduddridge,

2 inch or 3 inch:-O LOL, your spilting hairs now.

I wasn't trying to say your were putting Hardtimes overlay's down:-) and Hardtime11 I'm glad you did not take offence to our comments. I certainly was not trying to offend you.

[Hardtime11]

joduddridge,

2 inch or 3 inch:-O LOL, your spilting hairs now.

I wasn't trying to say your were putting Hardtimes overlay's down:-) and Hardtime11 I'm glad you did not take offence to our comments. I certainly was not trying to offend you.
I always have doubts (just being honest) and double look at things especially if it is not mine that is why I always accept feedback as no one is perfect. In other words I like it and it also encourages participation.