Progressive Automotive X-Prize Updates

[Derwin]

In this thread we will post any and all new information about the Progressive Automotive X-Prize, and Venture Vehicles participation in it. Here is the latest Article:

Progressive Automotive X Prize Launch Press Event Details
By Eric Boyd (http://digitalcrusader.ca/) on March 20, 2008 3:42 PM


The launch went off very well today - Peter Diamandis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Diamandis) (pictured), founder of the X Prize Foundation, chaired the event, and speakers ranging from Michael Bloomberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bloomberg) (Mayor of New York) to Glenn Renwick, CEO of Progressive Insurance (http://www.progressive.com/), to Alexander “Andy” Karsner, Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy at the Department of Energy (http://www.doe.gov/) (via video).
My favorite line? From Glen Renwick, CEO of Progressive Insurance: "This competition is an investment in the future of the automobile, and therefore an investment in our future." They get it!

Four teams showed off their cars: MDI showed a mock-up of their AirCar (http://xprizecars.com/2007/12/mdi-inc-and-zero-pollution-mot.php), painted green, FuelVapor Technologies drove the Ale in (http://xprizecars.com/2008/01/fuel-vapor-technologies-ale.php), painted yellow, Venture Vehicles (http://www.flytheroad.com/index.html) showed a mockup of the VentureOne, a tilting car, and finally a high school team West Philly Hybrid X Team (http://www.evxteam.org/) drove in a heavily modified Attack kit car. In addition, reps from many other teams were present and chatted to the assembled media. Tomorrow many teams get an hour on stage, so I'm going to try to live to blog some of that.
I'll be putting up complete audio of the event in a podcast shortly, but in the meantime click over the jump to read the press release from the AXP team.

X PRIZE Foundation & Progressive Insurance Join Forces to Officially Announce the $10 Million Progressive Automotive X PRIZE -- the Race to Develop Ultra Fuel-Efficient Cars
During Today's Launch, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg Declared New York City as Host of First Stage of Competition, Scheduled to Begin in September 2009
NEW YORK, NY--(Marketwire - March 20, 2008) -



Progressive Automotive X PRIZE
Today at the New York International Auto Show, the X PRIZE Foundation and Progressive (NYSE: PGR) jointly announced the company's Title Sponsorship of the Progressive Insurance Automotive X PRIZE competition and its funding of the $10 million prize purse.
The newly renamed Progressive Automotive X PRIZE is an international competition designed to inspire a new generation of viable, super fuel-efficient vehicles. The independent and technology-neutral competition is open to teams from around the world that can design, build and bring to market 100 MPGe (miles per gallon energy equivalent) vehicles that people want to buy, and that meet market needs for price, size, capability, safety and performance.

To date, more than 60 teams from nine countries have signed a Letter of Intent to compete for a share of the prize purse and global publicity.
"The Progressive Automotive X PRIZE is a call to action to promote and inspire innovation," said Dr. Peter H. Diamandis, chairman and CEO of the X PRIZE Foundation. "The environmentally friendly cars created as a result of this competition will affect everyone who drives in ways we can't even imagine today. Let the race begin!"

"We've been working hard to make a difference in car insurance for 70 years," said Progressive's CEO, Glenn Renwick. "Now we have a chance to make a difference by supporting the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE. This competition will result in more choices of more fuel-efficient vehicles for drivers and will be a catalyst for moving this technology forward, faster."
"This competition represents what we're all about in name and spirit--new ideas, competition and always working to do better," added Renwick. "Being a part of this gives us a chance to make a real difference."
At today's New York International Auto Show, four teams and their vehicles joined representatives of the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE. New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg was also on hand in support of the initiative.

Several teams in the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE's Letter of Intent program will be on hand to speak with the media throughout the show. A complete list of teams that have already signed a Letter of Intent to compete is included below.

The window for applications will be open until mid 2008, when a thorough qualification process will assess safety, cost, features and business plans to ensure that only production-capable, consumer-friendly cars compete. Those that qualify will race their vehicles in rigorous cross-country stage races in 2009 and 2010 that combine speed, distance, urban driving and overall performance. The winners will be the vehicles that exceed 100 MPGe, meet strict emissions standards and finish in the fastest time. Host cities involved in the competition route are to be announced shortly.

About the Competition:
Draft Guidelines that specify vehicle requirements and other aspects of the competition are available at http://auto.xprize.org/auto/automotive-x-prize/draft-guidelines. A summary of the current guidelines follows: The competition will comprise two vehicle classes: Mainstream and Alternative. Mainstream vehicles will be required to carry four or more passengers, have four or more wheels, and allow for a 200-mile range. Alternative-class vehicles will be required to carry two or more passengers, have no constraints on the number of wheels, and allow for a 100-mile range. All vehicles will need to meet requirements for performance and features to make the cars attractive to consumers. The competition will culminate with two dramatic, long-distance stage races in 2009-2010 -- a Qualifying Race and the Grand Prize Final Race. Race courses will reflect typical consumer driving patterns during numerous stages, in varied terrain, communities, and weather conditions. To win, vehicles must complete both races with the lowest overall time averaged over all scoring stages while still meeting the requirements for 100 MPGe fuel economy and low emissions of carbon dioxide and other pollutants. The $10 million prize purse will be split 3:1 between the winners of the Mainstream and Alternative classes. Final guidelines will be published shortly.

Teams in the Letter of Intent Program:
As of March 20, the following teams have signed a Letter of Intent to compete:
-- AirShip Technologies Group (Lake Oswego, OR, USA)
-- Alpha-Core/Poulsen Hybrid (Bridgeport, CT, USA)
-- Aptera Motors (Carlsbad, CA, USA)
-- Arkas Automotive (Istanbul, Turkey)
-- Avion Car Company (Bellingham, WA, USA)
-- Brilliant Automotive, (Fairfield, IA, USA)
-- Belloso Motor Company (Salisbury, MD, USA)
-- Brilliant Automotive (Southfield, IA, USA)
-- Commuter Cars Corp (Spokane, WA, USA)
-- Cornell University (Ithaca, NY, USA)
-- DEHyds (Tenino, WA, USA)
-- Delta Motorsport (Northamptonshire, UK)
-- Desert Fuel (Phoenix, AZ, USA)
-- Disruptech (Newhall, CA, USA)
-- Team Dragonfly (Northampton, UK)
-- Electric Truck Inc (Greenwich, CT, USA)
-- Energy Highway (Pleasanton, CA, USA)
-- Esterer Engineering Ltd. (Vancouver, BC, Canada)
-- FuelVapor Technologies BC, (Maple Ridge, BC, Canada)
-- Global-E (Mandeville, LA, USA)
-- Goodwin-Young "Linc Volt" (Wichita, KS, USA)
-- Greenhouse 2000 (Orlando, FL, USA)
-- Gunn Team (San Jose, CA, USA)
-- HerfDuo (Berlin, Germany)
-- Hybrid Technologies (Mooresville, NC, USA)
-- HyKinesys (Rolling Hills Estate, CA, USA)
-- ICEwave (Terre Haute, IN, USA)
-- Illuminati (Virden, IL, USA)
-- Kinetic Vehicles (Creswell, OR, USA)
-- Kuttner Doran Innovations (Charlottesville, VA, USA)
-- laeN'O (Marshall, NC, USA)
-- Loremo (Munich, Germany)
-- Lydell Industries (Frewsburg, NY, USA)
-- Maine Automotive X (Camden, ME, USA)
-- Mann Research & Development, (Benton, KY, USA)
-- MDI and Zero Pollution Motors, (Nice, France and New Paltz, NY, USA)
-- Michigan Vision (Ann Arbor, MI, USA)
-- Miles Electric Vehicles (Santa Monica, CA, USA)
-- Motive Industries, Inc. (Calgary, Alberta, Canada)
-- MotoTron Disrupt (Oshkosh, WI, USA)
-- Northwest Energy Research Association (Arlington, WA, USA)
-- Phoenix Motorcars (Ontario, CA, USA)
-- Physics Lab of Lake Havasu (Lake Havasu, AZ, USA)
-- Porteon Electric Vehicles, Inc. (Portland, OR, USA)
-- Prometheus Systems (Flagstaff, AZ, USA)
-- Psycho-Active (Moore, SC, USA)
-- RaceAbout Association (Helsinki Finland)
-- Red Light Racing (RLR) (Callaway, MD, USA)
-- Revolución Motors (Lawrence, KS, USA)
-- Society for Sustainable Mobility (Beverly Hills, CA, USA)
-- Spirit One (Alberta, CA, USA)
-- T3 Motion (Costa Mesa, CA, USA)
-- Team TWIKE IV (Germany)
-- Tesla Motors (San Carlos, CA, USA)
-- Tilting Vehicle Australia (Kilburn, Australia)
-- TriTrack (Georgetown, TX, USA)
-- USA Electric Cars, LLC (Cortland, NY, USA)
-- Valentin Technologies (Elm Grove, WI, USA)
-- Velozzi (Beverly Hills, CA, USA)
-- Venture Vehicles (Beverly Hills, CA, USA)
-- Visionary Vehicles (New York, NY, USA)
-- West Philly Hybrid X Team (Philadelphia, PA, USA)
-- Western Washington University/Vikings (Bellingham, WA, USA)
-- X Tracer Team Switzerland (Winterthur, Switzerland)
-- ZAP (Santa Rosa, CA, USA)

[MVRacing]

I'm sure we can put together a crops of volunteers to cover the race route.

My understanding is that most of the "race" is routes along everyday roads, so no "race driver" needed. It would make more sense to have a few V1 drivers who were experienced at getting max legal speed combined with maximum mileage from our "training prototypes". ;)

I believe there are some track legs planned. I've got an FIA, Grand AM, & SCCA license and would be happy to volunteer my services =y: Also have a large motor home and fully outfitted (tools etc) race trailer for a chase vehicle.

[Derwin]

Well, When this thing gets under way, you can be our "man on the street" and report all you findings to all of us club members! We can even start a thread dedicated to this.

Derwin

[Derwin]

New York 2008: Venture Vehicle's Howard Levine on the future of the VentureOne
Posted Mar 21st 2008 6:13PM by Sebastian Blanco

When we saw the distinctive shape of the VentureOne under wraps before the start of the Progressive Automotive X Prize announcement, we were pretty psyched. While the appearance of this vehicle on stage does revive our hope that we'll be able to drive one of these high-mpg hybrids one day, the bad news is that this is just a full-scale model. While it looks good, it's not going to get anyone anywhere. Yet.

Venture Vehicles' founder and CEO, Howard Levine, was happy to be back on the AutoblogGreen radar and gave us the rundown on where his company goes from here and how the VentureOne - which is a codename for the vehicle, not the final moniker - will move into production. He explained that the lack of media attention hasn't meant they haven't been working, just that they have been focusing on the vehicle, not on building hype. One of the big decisions the company has made is to offer only a hybrid version at launch, the pure electric option will have to wait until battery prices come down. Want more info? Listen to Levine yourself by clicking play.

YOU CAN HEAR THE INTERVIEW WITH HOWARD LEVINE HERE:
VV Howard Levine on Autobloggreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/21/new-york-2008-venture-vehicles-howard-levine-on-the-future-of/)

http://www.flytheroadclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=268&stc=1&d=1206143077
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[rogwild]

If you didn't get the 'link' from the FTR site here it is:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/21/new-york-2008-venture-vehicles-howard-levine-on-the-future-of/

or
http://tinyurl.com/2x33rc

Very informative interview.

[tugboatwilly]

O.K. And how do I hear what Howard said?

[rogwild]

Click on the 'speaker and arrow'.

[Derwin]

I have noticed that if you are running Internet Explorer, the audio message appears as a broken box. It works on Firefox, and I also had it work on Apple's Safari browser. Hope that helps.

Derwin

[cpaddock]

Firefox ROCKS! Thanks for the boost!

[CelticFlyer]

I heard the whole interview via Safari and it was crystal clear. I liked Howard's closing remark: "You're going to post that as an MP3?" I wish someone had the forethought to record a podcast for my iPod! ;)

So, the Alpha prototype will be complete within 90 days and the Beta, which from what I gather will be a "pre-production" vehicle will be ready by the end of the year. Which means...are we on track for owning these puppies this time next year? I may have to listen to the interview again, but that's what I gathered.

Patience, Grasshoppa... ;)

[RAN]

Celtic, I can only tell you that VV has never met one projected date they've ever made. It'd be nice if they had the Beta models ready by the end of this year, but it's not a smart bet. :-(

[CelticFlyer]

Yeah, this whole project is going to try my patience! Although, I've got to admit that part of the joy of ownership will be that I got involved at ground level and monitored it's progress, and that the anticipation is half of the fun. On the other hand, it would have been cool to learn about these vehicles when they actually hit the showroom floor...

I was also wrong about what I said earlier; Howard said they'd have the Alpha ready in 45-60 days.

[RAN]

I was also wrong about what I said earlier; Howard said they'd have the Alpha ready in 45-60 days.

I saw that, but 90 days is probably closer to reality. :)

[dhartman]

Just be sure -- Venture will meet the development deadlines as required by the AXP competition! And this means a few pretty much debugged betas by mid-2009, assuming a Q3, 2009 AXP Qualifying Race.

[waboom]

For those of you with the inability to play the interview, or who just want a handy reference to what was said, I've transcribed the interview.

Transcript of Howard Levine's interview with AutoblogGreen at NYC Auto Show, 21 March 2008
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/21/new-york-2008-venture-vehicles-howard-levine-on-the-future-of/

Howard: Howard Levine
Sebastian: Sebastian Blanco



Sebastian: Howard Levine, you are the founder and CEO of Venture Vehicles, and we saw the Venture... is it still Venture One?

Howard: Code-name Venture One.

Sebastian: Code-name Venture One, the full scale model of that, unveiled today during the X-Prize announcement. It's a very unique looking car, we've certainly written about it on AutoblogGreen before, because it's based on an earlier car which had some fuel efficiency numbers that were pretty impressive, but you're taking it to the next level, is that correct?

Howard: That is correct.

Sebastian: So tell me a little bit about what you decided to do with the powertrain and about the car itself.

Howard: Well, our current intention is to launch with a hybrid vehicle, and probably have a sports class version of that vehicle at a higher price, and to delay the launch of a full electric vehicle until after we come to market - that would be Gen 2.

Sebastian: The sports class would have a higher output motor, or engine, is that what that means in this sense?

Howard: In all likelihood, yes, as well as a bigger battery.

Sebastian: OK. How did you feel being one of the four cars selected here as sort of the showcase vehicles for the X-Prize today?

Howard: We're honored and privileged to be part of the X-Prize, and we think it's an incredible cause, and it's very exciting.

Sebastian: It's a full-scale model at this point. What sort of things need to happen in the near future for the Venture One?

Howard: Well, we expect to have our Alpha done in about 45 to 60 days. We're continuing to develop the propulsion module, as well as working with some of our engineering partners to develop the space frame and the rest of the engineering. Our target is to have 5 fully functioning, road-able, Betas by the end of the year.

Sebastian: What would some of the differences be between the Alpha and Beta versions? Would each Beta be different, or would they be 5 based on the Alpha, or would they be Beta-1, Beta-2...?

Howard: Our current thought process is that the Betas would basically be the same. We'd use them for testing purposes, things like that. The difference between the Beta and the Alpha is that the Beta [ed:I believe HL meant to say Alpha] is basically going to be a proof-of-concept vehicle that integrates the Carver tilting technology into our vehicle, but probably won't have body panels and things like that - more of a down-and-dirty prototype. The Beta will be close to a pre-production vehicle.

Sebastian: If listeners aren't familiar with the Carver One/Venture One, it's a long, sleek vehicle, 1 wheel in front, 2 wheels in back, and the 2 wheels in back, they're always staying solid on the ground, and the whole chassis on top of it swivels.

Howard: The cabin tilts and can tilt 45 degrees. You know, people have been experimenting with 3-wheeled vehicles for over fifty years - the Messerschmitt after World War II, the Robin Reliant, Corbin Sparrow. The big problem with 3-wheeled vehicles is stability. We're fortunate that we've entered into an agreement with Carver to license the tilting technology. That is the foundation of the Venture platform.

Sebastian: I was speaking with someone earlier who was also designing a 3-wheeled car, and he noticed that one of the issues is - he's from Maine - and so, one of the issues in the wintertime is a lot of snow builds up in the middle of the road. Is that something that you've thought about, that you're not always going to be on a nice smooth straightforward surface?

Howard: Well, the Carver vehicle, which is what we're based on, has full EU certification, and has been Alpine tested. We intend to do cold weather testing, and for the Venture One to be road-able in all weather conditions.

Sebastian: So even though it doesn't look like a car we drive today, people can still drive it the way they drive cars today.

Howard: Absolutely.

Sebastian: What were some of the issues that came up to push the pure electric version back?

Howard: I think the biggest one is battery technology. One of the things about our business model is that we're battery agnostic. So we can actually come to market with a Nickel-metal hydride [NiMH] battery if we have to. We're hoping to go to market with Lithium, but we can go to market with Nickel. The reason is because we have a superior coefficient of drag, superior power-to-weight ratio than traditional automotive. So we don't need as much power as a typical car company does. Either they need a really big Nickel battery, or they've got to figure out Lithium. So we're prepared to go to market with Nickel if we have to, but we are talking to partners in the Lithium-ion space. We're hoping there's going to be a breakthrough there, and if there is, we're going to leverage that. However, with respect to doing a pure EV vehicle right now, we don't think the cost of the battery are going to be low enough to make that commercially viable.

Sebastian: Right. As soon as that magic threshold is reached, so many people are going to be able to produce some amazing cars, because that's holding a lot of people back.

Howard: Absolutely. We also have a challenge due to our form factor. Right now we're planning on putting the battery in the keel of the vehicle, which is underneath the cabin. But we're probably going to need to develop a custom battery pack for that.

Sebastian: A lot of the news that you're putting out about this car and about your company comes at flytheroad.com. That's something you're trying to get out here today; I notice the hats floating around and things like that. What sort of messages are you trying to send on that site?

Howard: Well, first of all, just to give the Venture community an opportunity to get periodic updates on our development. We feel very, very excited that there's so much passion out there regarding this vehicle. And secondly, to give people an opportunity to pre-register, and to get their input and thoughts as to the types of features that they're going to want to see when we go into production.

Sebastian: I remember some of the early stories about your car on AutoblogGreen were quite a while ago, and you had kind of fallen off our radar a little bit, so I'm glad to see you here today, and the full scale model, and looking forward to news in the future.

Howard: Thank you very much. Our development program is going full steam ahead. You know, sometimes you just got to put your head down and focus on the details and get the work done. While it's very exciting to talk to media folks, but obviously its about getting the product right. So it's not that we were hibernating, or disappearing, but we want to make sure we hit our milestones, and then talk to the media when we've got something to really talk about.

Sebastian: Alright, well, we look forward to our next conversion.

Howard: Thank you very much.

Sebastian: Thank you.

Howard: You going to post that as an MP3, or just text?

Sebastian: MP3.

[Keldros]

Thanks for posting that transcript, waboom. I couldn't get the file to play in IE, and Firefox wouldn't say what bloody plug-in was actually needed to play it, only that a needed plug-in was missing. :confused:

I think that also clears up the question a bit that people had regarding why they are currently going with NiMH at the moment. While we can all agree that Lithium-Ion would be far better, VV also seems committed to keeping with their target price, and right now Lithium-Ion, especially the newer generation, could easily put them out of that price range. If they are keeping with the modular design, though, it certainly doesn't mean you won't later be able to upgrade. I remember seeing Tesla is going to be putting their first vehicles out with a one-speed transmission just so they can get them on the road, but that they will be providing a free upgrade once the new two-speed transmissions are available. Maybe VV could do something similar with the battery packs?

[rogwild]

I remember seeing Tesla is going to be putting their first vehicles out with a one-speed transmission just so they can get them on the road, but that they will be providing a free upgrade once the new two-speed transmissions are available. Maybe VV could do something similar with the battery packs?

Nice try, 'Keldros', but I doubt that a "FREE UPGRADE" would be likely; I'd settle for an easy replacement upgrade to Li Ion (with vehicle software change), after the after the 'service life' of the original ?NiMh ? are 'used up'.

[Keldros]

Hmm, now that I think about it, you're probably right, rogwild. I think it's easier for Tesla to offer that free upgrade at $80,000 a pop for their cars than it would be for VV to throw in free batteries once they come down in price. I'd settle for your idea of an easy modular upgrade to Li-Ion and software, too.

[Mark Tomlinson]

A few quick (nit-pick) corrections.
Tesla is offering to deliver early Roadsters with a two speed transmission which doesn't meet the quality specs and upgrade for free when the robust single speed transmission (1.5) becomes available.
The Roadster starts at $98,000. But most sell at over $100,000.
It's not the cost of the car that allows them to offer the free upgrade. It's the deep, deep pockets of the investors who won't tolerate another delay.It's that last point that probably makes free battery upgrades impossible for VV. Elon Musk alone has invested over $40 million in Tesla and said he'd fund the transmission upgrade himself if he has to.

[JoeU]

Here is the latest article from Popular Mechanics website: =y: Some interesting comments that differ from what we have heard so far like major players, etc.:eek:

The three-legged race to 100 mpg is on, and Venture Vehicles is at the start line with a slew of big-time backers and a full-scale model of its trikelike hybrid—an aerodynamic wunderkind they say will go 0 to 60 in 6 seconds. Based on the company's Carver vehicle, already available in Europe, the VentureOne is classified as a motorcycle, but Venture claims the tandem tilter is more than 30 times safer. "Narrow vehicles can be quite unstable, but our vehicle will lean into curves to provide control," founder Ian Bruce told PM at the New York auto show in March. Add a fully enclosed body, steering wheel, foot pedals, gear lever and an upright seat as high off the road as a BMW 3 Series, and the VentureOne seems a lot more carlike than comic-book.


How it Works
The onboard gas/electric hybrid propulsion system uses a small rear-mounted internal-combustion engine that can burn gasoline, E100 pure ethanol or any blend in between. This engine is used to drive a generator in the range of 15 to 20 kilowatts, which in turn produces electricity that powers the vehicle's electric motors. But Venture will test two different prototypes for the AXP— :confused: one all-electric and one 100-plus-mph hybrid, with a battery pack from the Chevy Volt all-stars at A123 Systems but no transmission. :confused: The Carver's Dynamic Vehicle Control, meanwhile, allows the VentureOne's front wheel—and its two passengers—to tilt up to 45 degrees as it corners, with force passing through the centerline.


Bottom Line
Crazy as it may sound for such a seemingly weird design, :mad: Venture has said it will rev up production beyond the mockup it presented in New York and produce over 10,000 hybrid tilters per year, =y: beginning in late 2008. :confused: Then again, with partners ranging from A123 to Swift Engineering and BMW DesignworksUSA, these Californians might curve right through production and into the driver's seat for the AXP—if its multitude of safety features hold true. —Brittany Marquis

It looks like whoever wrote this article didin't get all of their information right - or did they?

[smoove7410]

Tesla's are now going for $130,000. I work right next to there newly opened, as of today, socal showroom, and that guy who wrote that article had no idea what he was talking about. Everything he wrote, he picked up from other articles(old).

[rogwild]

http://autoxprize.typepad.com/axp/2009/01/competition-guidelines-have-just-been-released.html

[MontyInNJ]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/09/piaxp-logo-horizontal-i.jpg
REGISTRATION CLOSES FEBRUARY 28, 2009 – 25 TEAMS ANNOUNCED

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/teams

There are 20 teams listed on that page, and the X Prize says that two of the teams are still confidential - not sure who the other three are.

Is Persu ready?

Monty

[Derwin]

There are 20 teams listed on that page, and the X Prize says that two of the teams are still confidential - not sure who the other three are.

Is Persu ready?

Monty


I spoke with a member of the Persu team a short while ago, and he made it perfectly clear that they their paperwork for the X-Prize will be filed by the deadline. I guess we have to wait and see!

Derwin

[MVRacing]

Persue Mobility prominently featured on the new X Prize learning web site.

http://fuelourfuturenow.com/

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2009/02/fuel-our-future-screen-grab.png (http://fuelourfuturenow.com/)

[Derwin]

Nice find, MVR! I guess that verifies that they really are still contenders in the XPrize contest. Or at least I would think this verifies it, since it's on the main page of this site.

I'll be sure to post something about this as soon as I hear something new. But they have been pretty silent lately, so I'm not holding my breath!

Derwin

[shinn497]

Well hopefully!

Here is one thing I don't get.

They claim an a range of 400 miles on a six gallon tank. But, according to some of their tech photos, onl6 5 is usable. Combine that with a proposed 20 Mile EV range and you have

420miles/5 gallons = 84 mpg. How is that X-prize worthy???

Maybe I'm missing something. Unless its about MPGe.... 100 MPG WITHOUT the EV mode would be beautiful because its what we were promised way back when, still I crunched the numbers a while ago found that there are some serious diminishing returns for a High mpg vehicle so that extra ~25 doesn't matter THAT much.

I just want them to build the bloody thing so I go pick up chicks in the OC.

[Derwin]

420miles/5 gallons = 84 mpg. How is that X-prize worthy???

It's not.


Maybe I'm missing something. Unless its about MPGe....

Bingo! You hit it on the head. When I was on the phone with Steve at Persu, he told me that the Persu Hybrid will meet or exceed the mimimum X-Prize prerequisites. He explained that they will do that by meeting up the mpg with the mpge, and thereby meeting the requirments.


I just want them to build the bloody thing so I go pick up chicks in the OC.

You and me both, brother! thu:mbs:up:22

Derwin

[tugboatwilly]

You know I would not bet on these people getting TARP money, They can't even lie to the forum with a streight face.
Steve? Scott? HA,HA,HA, HA!!!

[Derwin]

Just to mention one other thing about this....

They can always create one model that meets and/or exceeds all prerequisites for the X-Prize, and then modify it for the production model. Nothing in the rules say that they must use the X-Prize model in the production version. Of course I'm just guessing, but it makes sense to me.

Another thing that I've been thinking about lately is the silence over the past few months. Could it be that they signed some kind of "non-disclosure" agreement pertaining to the X-Prize and this overall project? Again, just thinking out loud on this. du:n:n:o(

Derwin

[MVRacing]

Nothing in the rules say that they must use the X-Prize model in the production version.
Derwin

By the X prize rules you are absolutely correct. Persue could run a prototype ... it just has to meet viability for manufacture.

Yes, I agree, the lack of any news is very troubling. At this point I'd be happy to hear the old "Things are fine & progressing" :confused:

[Derwin]

Yes, I agree, the lack of any news is very troubling. At this point I'd be happy to hear the old "Things are fine & progressing" :confused:

Just a guess on my part, but I would think they are trying to avoid the "Ian complex" of making statements and promising things, and then nothing comes of it. I think they would rather stay completely silent for now, rather than post promises of exciting news that may be coming, and then causing mass dissapointments among us enthusiasts when the news never comes. That, and the idea that they might be under a gag-order of some kind.

Again, just a few wild guesses. u:n:s;ure;5(



Derwin

[rogwild]

Just to mention one other thing about this....

They can always create one model that meets and/or exceeds all prerequisites for the X-Prize, and then modify it for the production model. Nothing in the rules say that they must use the X-Prize model in the production version. Of course I'm just guessing, but it makes sense to me.
Yes, but they must actually 'create' a model that runs under its own power, tilts, stops, and gets great mileage........So far they have produced a great 'design', scrapped the entire initial propulsion concept,....changed their NAME, and given LESS information (even with a 'communications' specialist) than Venture Vehicles did (which I didn't think possible).

Another thing that I've been thinking about lately is the silence over the past few months. Could it be that they signed some kind of "non-disclosure" agreement pertaining to the X-Prize and this overall project? Again, just thinking out loud on this. du:n:n:o(

Derwin
It is possible, but WHO would they sign it with? Certainly NOT Progressive or the Automotive X-Prize people; since these people want to get AS MUCH publicity and hype going about the race and competition. The more people know and are interested in the 'race', the more sponsors and better media coverage for the event (ie. more MONEY for them). SILENCE, buys them NOTHING. I would also think that PM would want to get as much publicity for their advancements, to put pressure on the other teams, AND to lure additional investors for Series B and follow on funding.
If we go by what Steve Parry said;
"Hello. Steve Parry here. When I posted on this site for the first time about a month ago I committed to regularly communicate our milestones as we work our way to eventual production and sales." We have to conclude that they have made little or no 'progress' worth reporting since his Oct 2nd post. I guess we will 'KNOW' something in a couple of weeks when the X-Prize 'deadline' for official registration arrives. That is unless it is 'extended by popular demand' (read....we don't have enough teams to make it profitable so we're keeping it open longer.)=y:

[shinn497]

If you remember. Ian said that they needed to be more tight lipped as they are facing increasing competion in the PHEV market. What they were doing before was giving away some pretty inside information. Preproduction model snapshots, fabrication photos, specs, etc. I also noticed this change in attitude came around the time they failed to present at a PHEV conference. So they'vee definately have been exposed to the competition and have clamed up.

I know it kind of sucks, but until they have a design and prototype that is closer to what they will be selling they will rpobably be more silent. Then again that is just speculation. Just relish that, for real, none of us know what they are doing.

Have faith! Good things come to those who wait. At the very least the x-prize will keep them on track.

[AZEqualizer]

From the Automotive X Prize (page 29 of this PDF (http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/files/downloads/auto/PIAXP_Guidelines_V_1.0_20090110.pdf)):

Measuring Fuel Economy (MPGe) All energy sources used to propel PIAXP [Progressive Insurance Automotive X Prize] vehicles will be measured to generate fuel economy compared to miles per gallon of unleaded gasoline (MPGe, see above). The amount of fuel consumed on board will be measured at the end of each race stage by mass for liquid fuels and by temperature and pressure readings from gaseous fuels. The amount of electricity consumed will be measured from the plug (AC) to return the vehicle to the state of charge it started the stage with. AC electricity will be converted to BTUs at a rate of 3412 BTU/kWh and added to the energy content of the consumable fuel used for each race stage. The total number of BTUs will be divided by the energy content in the gasoline used in the PIAXP (approximately 112,000 BTUs per U.S. gallon) to get gallons of gasoline equivalent (GGE). The GGE used for each stage will then be divided into the miles of the stage to produce the MPGe fuel economy result for each stage. This general approach will be used in all on-road and on-track stages.

Procedures for measuring fuel economy during the chassis dynamometer stage are different.

[rogwild]

If you remember. Ian said that they needed to be more tight lipped .............

Have faith! Good things come to those who wait. At the very least the x-prize will keep them on track.

If you "remember"; the quote I gave by Steve and later by Scot, were AFTER Ian's statement, and his departure (unannounced, nor initially confirmed...perhaps not an important 'milestone' or development) and indicated that the LOYAL Enthusiasts would be the 'First to Know' of important developments.
I just turned 60, so don't take much on 'blind faith' (especially to those who don't back up their 'claims'); and I'd much rather be driving a 3-wheeled, 'tilter' than sitting behind a keyboard 'Waiting for 'Good things' to come'......Oh, yea, I already have a 3-wheeled TILTING scooter, loads of FUN, but still want my V-1, P Hybrid, or Vhatever!
As for the X-prize; PM has less than two weeks to get on the 'confirmed' list. Only 24 REAL contestants so far (lots more 'wanna be's' [including PM]), guess we will see how much 'progress' and how serious they are in about 10 days!

[zabisis]

I totally agree with Rogwild on this progress issue. The boys are not designing the vehicle, Carver already did this, they are re-coaching it.
This coachworks is considerably less than it would be for a car and at this point it is very important to have at least one demo vehicle with the new body for investors to see, touch and drive and a NEW video perhaps shot at Tail of the Dragon,Deals Gap(hint hint).
I wrote a letter in January asking if things were on track for a 2010 considering these economic times. I received no reply.
It is very disappointing but I feel this vehicle is only going to be a dream here in North America.... an unfulfilled dream. o:h"we"ll1

[rogwild]

Well, 'zabisis'; a bit more than 're-coaching', since they have to come up with an entirely new propulsion system. Too bad all the work on the Series Hybrid didn't pan out. They will need to show something more than last year's 'Foam Mock-up', if they want to show at any of this year's Auto Events. By now they SHOULD have a Moving & Tilting Prototype. If PM is not Officially Signed Up for the X-Prize (deadline next week).......the V-1, Persu Hybrid, 'Vhatever', may just have to be 'DREAM' for another time.

SILENCE is NOT GOLDEN; it SUCKS!!!!:(

[Derwin]

I totally agree with Rogwild on this progress issue. The boys are not designing the vehicle, Carver already did this, they are re-coaching it.

Welcome to the club, zabisis! wel;co;m;e101))

As rogwild has said, there is a "bit" more involved in this than simply "re-coaching" the vehicle. Carver is operating on a normal ICE which would be pretty easy to duplicate. All that Pursu is taking from the Carver is the DVC tilting technology. But they have to design an entirely new propulsion system that will be based on Hybrid and/or completely electric power. That's a whole lot more complicated than you can imagine.

I have to say that I also agree with rogwild in that silence in this arena is definitily NOT golden.

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

Well, people always marvel at how electric vehicles are so quite, I think Persu is a bit confused and think they are suppose to be quite as well! LOL

[Derwin]

Well, I guess silence is far better than being given "empty" updates and broken promises. I, for one, am beginning to wonder if they have really run into problems or not. As many have pointed out, it has indeed been a long time since we have received any REAL news about progress being made. This would make any rational person begin to wonder. du:n:n:o(

Derwin

[rogwild]

Progressive Insurance Automotive X PRIZE Media Exposure

One of the objectives of the Progressive Insurance Automotive X PRIZE is to provide visibility for the teams and their technologies. Over the past year, both the LOI Contenders and the competition have made a strong showing in the media.

The 2008 media relations campaign garnered significant media coverage. The vast majority of the stories have been positive and on message. From January 1 through December 31, 2008, the Prize received coverage on approximately 150 TV and radio stations across the globe, 100 national and international newspapers and 900 blogs and websites.
http://autoblog.xprize.org/axp/2009/02/progressive-insurance-automotive-x-prize-media-exposure.html

Too bad PM has chosen the 'Silent Treatment' and is missing out on most of this 'Free Publicity'. Come on PM get on the BAND WAGON, only 5 days left to be a REGISTERED competitor!

[rogwild]

So far the Progressive Automotive X-Prize say that they have 38 'Registered' teams, but they currently only have 'profiles' of the first 24 listed on their official page:
http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/teams
Perhaps PM is one of the 'new' 14........only 4 more days left to REGISTER.....unless they extend the deadline by 'popular demand'!

Thanks, for the 'resizing' Derwin. When I realized the problem, and tried to 'fix' it; my EDIT function didn't work (you must have already been working on it)!

[rogwild]

Well....TODAY is the DAY...ie. last day to Officially get REGISTERED for the X-Prize; hope PM has their papers in. I guess (hope) the X-Prize people will make a statement soon!
The SILENCE IS KILLING ME; at least Ian fed us the 'standard BS'....."working hard, moving ahead, 'update' soon". With PM, we can't tell if they are 'Hardly Working'!!!!!!!

[MVRacing]

Yup, no update on the X Prize web site yet. I sent them an email requesting the final entrants list. We'll see.....

[Derwin]

Well, all I can say is that Persu officials personally told me on the phone that the papers were prepared, and would be filed for the Xprize before todays deadline. I will give them the benefit of the doubt on this. But if it turns out that they in fact did NOT enter, then that would be a MAJOR blow in my opinion.

Let's wait and see.

Derwin

[rogwild]

They said its been a BUSY WEEK for the X-Prize people:
http://autoblog.xprize.org/axp/2009/02/registration-closes-for-the-progressive-automotive-x-prize.html

They say that they received more than 50 applications this week to add to the 40 already on hand (only about 25 'Officially Registered' disclosed so far). Looks like it may be 'weeks' and not 'days' until all the approved applications are announced.
Lets all hope that one of the approved packages came from Persu Mobility!!!

Maybe, this will provoke 'some' response or announcement from the 'mute' people at PM.

[rogwild]

There has been a recent change in how the $10 million prize will be split.
The winner of the 'Mainstream" category will get $5 mil.
and the winners of the 'Alternative' (side-by-side seating) a the winner of the 'Alternative' (tandem or single seat) will get $2.5 mil.
http://autoblog.xprize.org/axp/2009/03/reasoning-behind-the-purse-split.html

“What’s New” Section of the current Guidelines:

· The $10M purse will no longer be split 3:1 between the Mainstream and Alternative Classes. Instead, half of the $10M purse will be awarded to the Mainstream Class winner. The remaining $5M will be split between two winners in the Alternative Class – one vehicle with side-by-side seating, and one vehicle with tandem seating. .

[rogwild]

Here's the latest up date:
http://autoblog.xprize.org/axp/2009/03/progressive-insurance-automotive-x-prize-registration-update.html
Seems like they received about 120 applications (many in the last month), and it will be about another 30 days until they decide which ones will be accepted.
Looks like an interesting year ahead!:burning:rubber:

[eskeptic]

If the persu hybrid still intends on getting 75 mpg, 20 miles electric, and have a 7 kwh battery, then they aren't going to come near 100 mpge.

according to http://autoxprize.typepad.com/axp/2008/01/computing-mpge.html, they are only getting about 50 mpge.

They can't enter into the X-Prize, not in any serious manner, because they don't qualify.

[Derwin]

If the persu hybrid still intends on getting 75 mpg, 20 miles electric, and have a 7 kwh battery, then they aren't going to come near 100 mpge.

according to http://autoxprize.typepad.com/axp/2008/01/computing-mpge.html, they are only getting about 50 mpge.

They can't enter into the X-Prize, not in any serious manner, because they don't qualify.

Well, they filed the paperwork to enter the contest. Now I guess we will all find out very soon whether or not their application is accepted.

One thing I think you should remember.... Persu, or any other company for that matter, can create a "special" vehicle specifically for this contest, and it does NOT have to be the model that they actually go into production with.

Again, we just have to wait and see.

Derwin

[RAN]

Persu, or any other company for that matter, can create a "special" vehicle specifically for this contest, and it does NOT have to be the model that they actually go into production with.

Maybe. But Persu can't even get a running prototype of their production model going. They'd have to be crazy to divert their resources now to designing a different model for the X-Prize. A vehicle doesn't have to win it's class in the X-Prize to do well in the marketplace, and the chances of Persu winning are not favorable. If they have any sense (and I haven't seen much from them to indicate they do), they'll worry about getting a model into production ASAFP!

Does anybody here still think that Persu will have a model for sale anytime in 2011??? Aptera has had running prototypes for well over a year now, and you see how long it's taking them.

[Derwin]

Maybe. But Persu can't even get a running prototype of their production model going. They'd have to be crazy to divert their resources now to designing a different model for the X-Prize. A vehicle doesn't have to win it's class in the X-Prize to do well in the marketplace, and the chances of Persu winning are not favorable. If they have any sense (and I haven't seen much from them to indicate they do), they'll worry about getting a model into production ASAFP!

Does anybody here still think that Persu will have a model for sale anytime in 2011??? Aptera has had running prototypes for well over a year now, and you see how long it's taking them.


Well, I just said that it was a "possibility" that they could do this. Whether they will or not is anybody's guess.

As to your question about Persu having an actual model for sale in 2011.... Hmmm. I don't know. I'm hoping. But it does seem doubtful.

Until we hear some real updates with "meat" in them, then I guess we will all continue to have our doubts. But, either way, I want one of these babies WHENEVER they hit the market... 2011, 2012, 2013..etc.

Derwin

[WarpedOne]

Does anybody here still think that Persu will have a model for sale anytime in 2011???

No.

Yes, it would be nice and all that blah blah, but no. Things always take longer than planned. It is at least three years from running prototype until production in any meaningful numbers.

For now, Persu is all hype, hot air.

[Derwin]

Yes, it would be nice and all that blah blah, but no. Things always take longer than planned. It is at least three years from running prototype until production in any meaningful numbers.

For now, Persu is all hype, hot air.

I pretty much agree with your assessment about the timeframe. It may be another couple years until we see the Persu hit the streets. Wish it would be sooner, but hey, I'll be happy whenever it becomes available.

To say that Persu "is all hype, hot air", though, is turning a blind eye to the work that they have done over the past 2 years or so. They may not have a running prototype just yet, but they have been accomplishing a great deal behind the scenes over these years. That's not hype. It's fact.

But I think they can expect a lot of doubt at this point in the game from anybody that has been paying attention. Heck, they made some bad PR decisions when they had the company forum up by overpromising. Now they've all but vanished from sight. This would cause a bit of consternation and doubt even among some of their staunchest supporters!

Derwin

[WarpedOne]

but they have been accomplishing a great deal behind the scenes over these years.

Well, they might have been but we don't really know about that now do we?

Styrofoam models, a short movie of an interesting contraption and an alleged X-prize candidacy. Hell, I am much more impressed with work that some people do in their own back yard.

My filling is they are taking too much time for what they are trying to do. They are not designing a car after all but something much more bike-like with no really new technology. Except that parallel hybrid thing. It might very well kill them.

Hell, I guess I just wan't it too much... no:wor:thy1

[Derwin]

Hell, I guess I just wan't it too much... no:wor:thy1



You and me both, brother! thu:mbs:up:22

Derwin

[eskeptic]

Well, they filed the paperwork to enter the contest. Now I guess we will all find out very soon whether or not their application is accepted.

One thing I think you should remember.... Persu, or any other company for that matter, can create a "special" vehicle specifically for this contest, and it does NOT have to be the model that they actually go into production with.

Again, we just have to wait and see.

Derwin

They would have to have a vehicle that was 100 mpg with absolutely no electric mileage at all. That's the only way they can even get near 100 mpge. Their electric mileage is completely inefficient compared to gas mileage. They don't have the resources to develop dual drive trains at this point. If they are developing a second drive train, when they can't even get their real drive train working, I don't know what I would think to be honest. I mean, it's hard enough to take this company seriously, with zero progress announcements. If they were working on something other than their production vehicle, then at this point it would be safe to write them off as vaporware, IMHO.

[Derwin]

If they are developing a second drive train, when they can't even get their real drive train working, I don't know what I would think to be honest. I mean, it's hard enough to take this company seriously, with zero progress announcements. If they were working on something other than their production vehicle, then at this point it would be safe to write them off as vaporware, IMHO.

So, what you are saying is.... IF they are WORKING on something, then it's "vaporware". Hmmm. That's pretty strange logic in my opinion. How can it be vaporware if they are in fact "working" on it? I guess I just don't understand what your trying to say.

By the way, I have no idea IF they are working on a "special" vehicle for the contest or not. But I will repeat what a Persu official told me on the phone.... that this is a "possibility" and an option. Whether they are currently using that option, I don't know.

But, hey, it's good to be "skeptical", eskeptic. I think we should ALL have a little Missouri blood in us... "Believe it when we see it" type of mindset. That's a good and healthy attitude. thu:mbs:up:22

By the way, Welcome to the club! wel:l)

Derwin

[eskeptic]

So, what you are saying is.... IF they are WORKING on something, then it's "vaporware". Hmmm. That's pretty strange logic in my opinion. How can it be vaporware if they are in fact "working" on it? I guess I just don't understand what your trying to say.

By the way, I have no idea IF they are working on a "special" vehicle for the contest or not. But I will repeat what a Persu official told me on the phone.... that this is a "possibility" and an option. Whether they are currently using that option, I don't know.

But, hey, it's good to be "skeptical", eskeptic. I think we should ALL have a little Missouri blood in us... "Believe it when we see it" type of mindset. That's a good and healthy attitude. thu:mbs:up:22

By the way, Welcome to the club! wel:l)

Derwin

what I am saying is this... if they are working on something that they have no intention of bringing to production, instead of the vehicle they intend to bring to production, then it's safe to write off their production vehicle as vaporware. They've made minimal progress in the years they've been working on this project, for them to postpone the production vehicle in favor of a altogether separate project, would be unconscionable, IMO.

So, here's where we stand. Their current production specs aren't sufficient to compete in the X-Prize. Working on a separate vehicle for the X-Prize is irresponsible, and pretty much relegates their production vehicle to vaporware.

[Mark Tomlinson]

what I am saying is this... if they are working on something that they have no intention of bringing to production, instead of the vehicle they intend to bring to production, then it's safe to write off their production vehicle as vaporware. They've made minimal progress in the years they've been working on this project, for them to postpone the production vehicle in favor of a altogether separate project, would be unconscionable, IMO.

So, here's where we stand. Their current production specs aren't sufficient to compete in the X-Prize. Working on a separate vehicle for the X-Prize is irresponsible, and pretty much relegates their production vehicle to vaporware.
I don't agree with your particular definition of vaporware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware), but I do agree that the Persu Hybrid is, in fact, vaporware. It's been promised and delayed so many times they've decided to stop promising. Still, much vaporware does eventually emerge from the darkness and become real - so I'm still holding out hope.

Back on topic; I've taken the time to skim the Automotive X-Prize Guidelines (http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/files/downloads/auto/PIAXP_Guidelines_V_1.0_20090110.pdf). First, they want 100 MPGe. The 'e', as we know, means 'equivalent'. Bearing in mind that the Persue Hybrid will be a plug-in hybrid, the vehicle could easily reach 100 MPGe if the electric-only range is a significant enough portion of the testing. For instance, what if testing is for 100 miles of mixed city and highway driving and 40 miles is electric only? We really don't know (anymore) what the vehicle's electric range will be. But the X-Prize does tell us that the "Shakedown Stage" of the contest doesn't measure MPGe and allows competitors to make improvements in their vehicles. The "Knockout Stage" of the contest says this -

A combined on-road energy efficiency and range event of 200 miles (322 km) for the Mainstream class and 100 miles (161 km) for Alternative class will be conducted. This event will be laid out to represent a composite of the city and highway test cycles (UDDS and HWFET) with comparable accelerations and speed profiles. Vehicles must demonstrate a minimum of 67 MPGe (e.g. 2/3rds of the target goal) and meet the minimum range for the applicable class in order to be eligible to compete for the grand prize. Energy efficiency will be measured in the same fashion as the on-road stages; no refueling or recharging will be allowed.
The Persu Hybrid is in the Alternative class, so they only have to prove 67 MPGe over 100 miles. Easy. It's the third stage where things get really hard (including the cross-country run) and 100 MPGe is required for the Grand Prize. And, even so, winning the Grand Prize is not the only reason to compete. There's plenty of other reasons they've taken the time to mention on their web site (http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/prize-details/why-compete). "Industry Credibility" is a big one since all entrants must demonstrate they can mass produce and maintain a service infrastructure for a vehicle people actually want to buy.

So, I guess what I'm getting at is that Persu does not have to divert their attention to building a car that will win the X-Prize just to join the competition. In fact, if they do build a one-off, it won't qualify.

[dr4]

Hello everyone,
I don't post often and the couple of times I have, I must confess to a certain vein of skepticism. I was in science for over 40 years, a lot of it in biotech. I thought that science was about creating products to benefit mankind. Then I got a rude awakening watching some of my students go off into venture capital biotech. You could say this is when I lost my scientific virginity. I found out how it really works. Here's how you do it. You get an idea and you pitch it to people with a lot of money to invest. Kind of like pitching a plot for a movie. You get some money and you lease a building, hire science people to do experiments for one reason. All you do is show feasibilty and market niche. While you go merrily on your way drawing down a big salary and giving speeches until you convince a bigger company that the product might be viable (or a threat to them) and then guess what? You don't sell any product! You sell the company! You never intended to make any product! And what do you get? You get to cash in all those lovely stock options you got for nothing to hold until the company goes public! Shazaam! Wealth out of thin air. NO product. No benefit to anyone except the geniuses who've discovered how to transfer bucks from one set of money grubbers to another.
Now I hope, god how I hope I'm wrong with VV or Persu or whatever they are this week. But all the signs are there. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news and let's hope it doesn't turn out that way for all our sakes.

[Derwin]

So, I guess what I'm getting at is that Persu does not have to divert their attention to building a car that will win the X-Prize just to join the competition. In fact, if they do build a one-off, it won't qualify.


When I was on the phone with a member of the Persu team, he very clearly told me that they are most concerned with PRODUCING a vehicle for production, and not necessarily for the XPrize contest. He went on to state that the XPrize contest was important, but it would NOT divert attention away from the vehicle that they are attempting to make. They are focused on putting together something that will meet the needs of consumers. Their focus is NOT on simply "winning" the XPrize contest. This would be far too short-sighted.


Now I hope, god how I hope I'm wrong with VV or Persu or whatever they are this week. But all the signs are there. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news and let's hope it doesn't turn out that way for all our sakes.

Welcome to the club, dr4! wel;co;m;e101)) It's good to see you posting.

The scenario that you laid out happens over and over again throughout America. And, sadly, it's really nothing new. But I think your drawing comparisons with Persu that simply do not exist. They are indeed working on a vehicle. They are not simply "talking" about a "concept".

In case you didn't catch it, there was a short video that Ian uploaded to his Youtube account many months ago. This video actually showed the mule that they are working on. It was fascinating. I posted the to video this club, and then the next day I was contacted by Ian, and asked to remove it. Ian actually was NOT supposed to release the video to the public, and got a bit of "heat" for doing so. Anyway, I removed the video.

My point is this.... The Persu team IS working on an ACTUAL vehicle. This is not one of those ploys just to generate a bunch of bucks, and then produce nothing.

If you end up being correct, though, about this, then I owe you a cigar!

Derwin

[3dO]

dr4, what you are talking about has already happened. Ian had the idea and created Venture Vehicles to show that the idea is a viable one with good market potential. Then he got someone to invest money , took his share and "sold" the company to someone who can hopefully produce it and get it on the market.

[Derwin]

dr4, what you are talking about has already happened. Ian had the idea and created Venture Vehicles to show that the idea is a viable one with good market potential. Then he got someone to invest money , took his share and "sold" the company to someone who can hopefully produce it and get it on the market.


No. That is not exactly what happened. Ian was not the "owner" of the company. He was the co-founder, and there is a big difference. Howard Levine was the other co-founder, and he is still with the company.

Ians departure is recent, from all we can tell, and it came after they had the initial financing for the company secured for a couple years. I don't think it's fair to say that Ian "sold" the company. He was only ONE PLAYER that decided to leave and "pursue" other endeavors. The other main players from the beginning are still actively involved.

Derwin

[RAN]

In case you didn't catch it, there was a short video that Ian uploaded to his Youtube account many months ago. This video actually showed the mule that they are working on

No... it showed the vehicle they were working on. It never actually ran under it's own power, or we'd've seen videos of that. Believe it.


My point is this.... The Persu team IS working on an ACTUAL vehicle. This is not one of those ploys just to generate a bunch of bucks, and then produce nothing.

No Derwin. Persu has shown us nothing to prove they're working on anything. All we've heard from them is bland, canned Lawyerspeak. That's not enough for me to put any faith in whatsoever, especially not with this company's track record. The fact that they can still snow you on the phone is only proof of your gullibility, not that they're working on anything concrete. I'd've thought that you'd've learned that by now.

I'm going with dr4's scenario until I have a real reason to change my mind. I'm totally in "Missouri (show me) mode" with this company.

[Derwin]

I'm going with dr4's scenario until I have a real reason to change my mind. I'm totally in "Missouri (show me) mode" with this company.

Well, RAN, believe it or not, I am also in "Missouri-SHOW ME" mode. I leave the practice of "faith" to my religious beliefs, and the Persu project is NOT one of them!

It's not costing me a dime to simply sit back and watch what will happen. Like I've said many times... we will see how this all plays out in the coming months and/or years. I'm still hoping that they come out with this vehicle, basically because I want one! But it's just hope. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Derwin

[eskeptic]

Back on topic; I've taken the time to skim the Automotive X-Prize Guidelines (http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/files/downloads/auto/PIAXP_Guidelines_V_1.0_20090110.pdf). First, they want 100 MPGe. The 'e', as we know, means 'equivalent'. Bearing in mind that the Persue Hybrid will be a plug-in hybrid, the vehicle could easily reach 100 MPGe if the electric-only range is a significant enough portion of the testing.

Actually, the electric only range brings the MPGe down to 50 from 75.

Their MPGe for electric only is significantly lower than their MPGe on gas only drive. So, they are 75 mpge (projected) for gas only. They are 50 mpge for gas and electric.

[RAN]

I'm not sure how they calculate MPGe, but in it's current proposed form, the Persu hybrid will not be able to get significant EV-only miles at anything like even city street speeds, nevermind highway speeds. If they couldn't get 20 EV-only miles out of a series hybrid, they sure aren't going to get it out of the parallel hybrid design they're suposedly working on now. With the added weight the parallel system will bring, it would require even more batteries to get the same range. Supposedly, it was the high cost of batteries for the serial hybrid that sent them down the parallel path in the 1st place.

It would be really nice to get some straight information out of this company... just once.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Actually, the electric only range brings the MPGe down to 50 from 75.

Their MPGe for electric only is significantly lower than their MPGe on gas only drive. So, they are 75 mpge (projected) for gas only. They are 50 mpge for gas and electric.
I'm not following you at all. The whole point of plug-in hybrids is that electric drive is far more efficient than an ICE. An ICE gets roughly 18% efficiency out of the gasoline, while an EV gets near 90% efficiency when you figure in charging and battery losses.

An example; the Lotus Elise gets something like 24 MPG in the EPA combined driving cycle. It's heavier electric cousin, the Tesla Roadster, gets 134 MPGe on the same EPA driving cycle. That's conservatively a five-fold improvement. Of course if the Elise were a hybrid we'd factor in regenerative braking and it would be closer to a three or four-fold improvement.

The big hang up is that batteries are not nearly as energy dense as gasoline. So Toyota, GM and others (Persu) elect to split the difference and run on electric drive as far as a reasonable set of batteries will take you (generally 20-40 miles). Hence, a Toyota Prius will get 40-50 MPG, but a Hymotion plug-in conversion Prius will get 75-100 MPGe. Extrapolating that to the Persu Hybrid; 75 MPG in gas hybrid mode equals 150 MPGe when you figure in battery-only mode. But that's not fair because it all depends on the driving cycle and the battery-only range. I assume the Persu will have a short battery-only range, yeilding something closer to 100 MPGe over 100 miles of combined city/highway driving.

[Mark Tomlinson]

I'm not sure how they calculate MPGe, but in it's current proposed form, the Persu hybrid will not be able to get significant EV-only miles at anything like even city street speeds, nevermind highway speeds. If they couldn't get 20 EV-only miles out of a series hybrid, they sure aren't going to get it out of the parallel hybrid design they're suposedly working on now. With the added weight the parallel system will bring, it would require even more batteries to get the same range. Supposedly, it was the high cost of batteries for the serial hybrid that sent them down the parallel path in the 1st place.

It would be really nice to get some straight information out of this company... just once.
My whole point was that from a business perspective the best strategy is to continue building the car for us consumers and enter whatever they have in the X-Prize regardless of the MPGe. They don't have to win the $10 million dollar Grand Prize to benefit from the exposure, R&D, networking, and investor opportunities the X-Prize presents. Plus, the very fact that they entered signals to me that they are indeed building something which they intend to mass produce (read the rules).

I agree with you RAN that their public relations sucks donkey ba... er, sucks eggs. And I did forget about the serial to parallel hybrid switch. But if you guys have already made up your minds about Persu's intentions, there's no sense in me going on.

[dr4]

Hello Derwin,
I didn't mean to say venture companies don't work on a product. Of course they do. But it's without any intention of bringing the product to market. There's a difference between someone with an idea who follows through to produce something of lasting value and quality for others and someone who produces start ups, takes their cut and then moves on. That person releases control because they don't particularly care whether the product has quality or gets produced at all. I know my philosophy is old fashioned but I think we need more of it in our economy today. Let's keep our fingers crossed!

[Derwin]

Hello Derwin,
I didn't mean to say venture companies don't work on a product. Of course they do. But it's without any intention of bringing the product to market.

Yes. I understood what you were saying. I simply do not agree with your opinion that Ian and Howard from the very beginning, had absolutely no intention on bringing this product to market. And that is the "crux" of the matter.

But, hey, you might be right. All I'm saying is to sit back, give them another year or so, and then see what transpires. Like I said, I may owe you a nice premium cigar at the end of all this, but I don't think so!

Derwin

[dr4]

That's one bet I hope I lose. If you win, we all win.

[eskeptic]

I'm not sure how they calculate MPGe, but in it's current proposed form, the Persu hybrid will not be able to get significant EV-only miles at anything like even city street speeds, nevermind highway speeds. If they couldn't get 20 EV-only miles out of a series hybrid, they sure aren't going to get it out of the parallel hybrid design they're suposedly working on now. With the added weight the parallel system will bring, it would require even more batteries to get the same range. Supposedly, it was the high cost of batteries for the serial hybrid that sent them down the parallel path in the 1st place.

It would be really nice to get some straight information out of this company... just once.


I posted the link to the X-Prize website where they detailed how they calculated mpge... every vehicle (proposed or production) mpge goes down when you add the electric range.

[rogwild]

Just got an 'update email' from the Progressive Auto X-Prize people:
This week, in conjunction with the opening days of the 2009 New York International Auto Show, the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE will announce a complete list of all Registered Teams who have been accepted into the competition. Members of the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE team will also be in NY this Wednesday, April 8, meeting with press, industry groups and even a few of our newly Registered Teams at the opening press day of the New York Auto Show.



Additionally, this Thursday afternoon from 12:30-1:30 EST, members of the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE team will be live blogging on our website, fielding questions on the Registered Teams announcement. Please RSVP to chat with members of the X PRIZE team on Thursday afternoon.



We would like to take this opportunity to thank all of our teams, fans and supporters in helping reach this historic milestone of the competition! You will be hearing from us shortly with the exciting announcement of the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE newly registered competitors.

Maybe PM will provide a brief 'Announcement' to the Forum and maybe give a hint when we can expect more.du:n:n:o(

[AZEqualizer]

The list came out earlier than expected ... here is the link to the pdf. (http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/podcasts/xprizeTeamsforPressFINAL.pdf)

Under Registered Teams in teh Alternative class:

Alternative Class vehicles must carry two or more passengers, have no constraints on the number of wheels, and allow for a
100 mile range.


Persu Mobility Inc. Electric/Gasoline hybrid Los Angeles, CA USA #18 on the list

[Derwin]

Does this mean that they are actually "IN" the contest now, and not just that they have submitted their application?

Just curious.

I also noticed that Revolution Motors is registered in the "Mainstream Class", and has the fuel source as: Electric, Diesel, Compressed Natural Gas. I wonder why they aren't listed under the "Alternative" class like Persu.

Derwin

[rogwild]

Looks like their 'Registration Application' has been Officially Accepted!2thumb:up

Now all they have to do is have a vehicle at the 'Starting Line' when the green flag is waved!!!!!!:burning:rubber:

Derwin, that is "Revolucion Motors' from Lawrence, KS. Not 'Revolution Motors' from Calif........Looks like the Dagne will be a 'no show'.:confused:

Hey, I also didn't see "SPARK~EV" on there!o:h"we"ll1 I guess M.P. couldn't 'scam' Progressive with his 'straight-road' Comet.r:o:f:l:2:2:1

[Derwin]

Derwin, that is "Revolucion Motors' from Lawrence, KS. Not 'Revolution Motors' from Calif........Looks like the Dagne will be a 'no show'.:confused:

That's a bummer. I was looking forward to them entering the contest. I guess they may be having some trouble on the financial end, but that's only a guess. I hope they gets things together. That was a very nice concept vehicle. Well, it shows that it IS pretty difficult to go from concept, to production vehicle, and Revolution Motors is exhibit A!


Hey, I also didn't see "SPARK~EV" on there!o:h"we"ll1 I guess M.P. couldn't 'scam' Progressive with his 'straight-road' Comet.r:o:f:l:2:2:1

I wonder how our "good friend" Mr. Papp is doing! Hope he got out of jail and took care of his other legal problems. hy:per1)

Derwin

[waboom]

Keep in mind, the press release noted that 6 companies asked to remain confidential, so we don't know the whole list of entrants yet.

Also note that the release notes that the first road challenge will start as early as May 2010, so Persu has just over a year to produce a running vehicle.

[Derwin]

Also note that the release notes that the first road challenge will start as early as May 2010, so Persu has just over a year to produce a running vehicle.

OK. Now's the time to start taking "bets" from members on when or IF Persu will get a working vehicle ready to meet this first road challenge.

I have $100 and a premium cigar that says they do! :bounce:

Derwin

[willk]

ahh, but would you bet that the competition vehicle will be the same one that gets sold to consumers?

[Derwin]

ahh, but would you bet that the competition vehicle will be the same one that gets sold to consumers?

Nope. But that doesn't really matter. If they create a vehicle that gets into this race meeting all of the qualifications, than I don't think it's going to be difficult for them to make one for mass production. They may need to trim a few things off of it in order to keep the retail price at a reasonable level, but that's fine with me!

Derwin

[MVRacing]

For all the media exposure, I would think they would attempt to have the interior & exterior as close as possible to production.

[Mark Tomlinson]

ahh, but would you bet that the competition vehicle will be the same one that gets sold to consumers?
It has to be, according to the rules. The X-Prize isn't about making a 100 MPG car. It's about bringing a 100 MPG car to market. Companies have to prove viability to make it through the first stage, which could explain why Persu has commented on the efforts to (re)design the vehicle for mass production.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Nope. But that doesn't really matter. If they create a vehicle that gets into this race meeting all of the qualifications, than I don't think it's going to be difficult for them to make one for mass production. They may need to trim a few things off of it in order to keep the retail price at a reasonable level, but that's fine with me!

Derwin
Folks, I know some PDFs can be a tough read, but check out the X-prize guidelines (http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/files/downloads/auto/PIAXP_Guidelines_V_1.0_20090110.pdf) - specifically page 9. Better yet, I will copy it here.

Production Capable Vehicles
Our goals require that PIAXP vehicles and vehicle modifications be designed to reach the market. Accordingly, all vehicles entered into the PIAXP competition must be “production capable”, as judged by expert panels in four areas:
• Safety, Emissions: Vehicles must be designed so that a production vehicle would likely be able to meet U.S. safety standards (FMVSS) and U.S. emissions standards (Tier II, Bin 5)
• Manufacturability, Cost: Vehicles must be capable of being manufactured in quantities of 10,000 per year, with vehicle production costs within levels consistent with historical examples of comparable vehicles
• Features: Vehicles must be desirable, addressing the most important features and factors consumers consider when purchasing an automobile
• Business Plan: There must be a credible plan to manufacture, sell, and service 10,000 vehicles (or conversions) per year by 2014. The plan must show that the national fuel infrastructure will support the vehicles, especially if any non-standard fuels or fueling-methods are to be used.I know this doesn't mean that the Pursu entered in the competition has to be exactly the same as what they bring to market. But it does mean that it will be their best effort at making a production quality vehicle.

So I reiterate what I've said before. If Pursu makes a one-off vehicle specifically to get 100 MPGe for the competition, then they won't even qualify!

[Mark Tomlinson]

P.S., Did you notice that the Tesla Roadster doesn't qualify? They have no intention of building 10,000 a year. And I don't think the business model of having Lotus build the glider allows for that many.

But get this, they have entered and listed their business address as Auburn Hills, MI. That's where the Model S sedan was designed! If they get 100 MPGe in the Sedan, then I think I know who's going to win the $5,000,000 Mainstream Class.

[Derwin]

I know this doesn't mean that the Pursu entered in the competition has to be exactly the same as what they bring to market. But it does mean that it will be their best effort at making a production quality vehicle.

But that's the whole point, Mark. It does NOT mean that they "must" bring this same exact vehicle to market.


So I reiterate what I've said before. If Pursu makes a one-off vehicle specifically to get 100 MPGe for the competition, then they won't even qualify!

I beg to differ. According to the rules (and you have to read them VERY closely!), the only criteria concerning this is that the vehicle must be "capable" of being a production vehicle, and the company is not required at all to actually GO INTO production with the same vehicle that they enter the contest with.

This is what I was told.... A company must design a vehicle that is "production capable" which meets all of the criteria of the contest. Any company can create a vehicle that meets all of the criteria, and then not move forward with it in production. The reasons for them not going to production with it are many, but the main reason would be PRICE. As far as Persu is concerned, they want to create a production vehicle that is "low cost" and have a retail price of around $20,000 to $25,000. So what they "could" do is create a vehicle that is "production quality/capable" with better batteries and other features that are extremely expensive. This vehicle would then qualify and meet all of the criteria for the contest. Then the ACTUAL production vehicle that they go to market with can be one that simply does not have the expensive batteries, etc.

That is how this contest works, and that is how ANY company can proceed. I was told this by someone that would know. Now, if the "production costs" are way to high (as may be with the Tesla), then they won't qualify. But I'm sure all of the companies will take that into consideration.

So, yes, Persu (or any other company) can enter a vehicle in the contest that they don't go to production with. They are not required to go to market with the exact vehicle that they enter into the contest.

Derwin

[WarpedOne]

The plan must show that the national fuel infrastructure will support the vehicles, especially if any non-standard fuels or fueling-methods are to be used.
Now, can onyone explain to me in simple terms how hydrogen vehicles meet this rule?

[ziggy951]

Now, can onyone explain to me in simple terms how hydrogen vehicles meet this rule?


They dont add in the cost of generating the Hydrogen :)




Z

[MVRacing]

Have you looked thru the team profiles which includes some of their vehicles?

I'm wondering how a number of them qualify ... an old Avanti, a few old Saturns, one that looks like a rusted out VW Golf, and some that appear to be a light skin hung over a small tubing frame.

I mean how do they meet the rule -
Vehicles must be desirable, addressing the most important features and factors consumers consider when purchasing an automobile

I suppose they could have a design which uses the same technology as their race vehicle du:n:n:o(

[AZEqualizer]

PLAYA VISTA, Calif., (April 7, 2009) --The Progressive Insurance Automotive X PRIZE, a multimillion dollar competition designed to inspire a new generation of viable, super fuel-efficient vehicles, today announced its official list of 111 Registered Teams. Here is some video from that anouncement.

2IpG5hbY4WI

While I was at the site I found this interesting article from Popular Mechanics Published on: March 26, 2009 .Where are they Now? (http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4310292.html?page=8)


http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/xprize-persu-470-0309.jpg



When We Last Saw Them: Persu, formerly known at Venture One, was working to bring its three-wheeled concept car into physical reality.

The Changes: Fear of saying anything on record that might interfere with attempts to find funding have driven Persu into silence recently. One source says the team still plans to enter the X-Prize race with the three-wheeled vehicle which can get up to 60 in 6 seconds and bank up to 45 degrees as it corners—the same one it has been promoting for the last six months. When asked if that car had undergone any changes, Persu Founder and Chief Operating Officer Howard Levine stayed true to the team’s silence: “I cannot comment one way or the other.”

The Bottom Line: We received “no comment” to our questions and there has been nothing new but artist renderings to officially come out from the company. Despite all this, they are still entrants to watch out for—if their safety features hold true.

[rogwild]

Have you looked thru the team profiles which includes some of their vehicles?

I'm wondering how a number of them qualify ... an old Avanti, a few old Saturns, one that looks like a rusted out VW Golf, and some that appear to be a light skin hung over a small tubing frame.

I mean how do they meet the rule -
Vehicles must be desirable, addressing the most important features and factors consumers consider when purchasing an automobile

I suppose they could have a design which uses the same technology as their race vehicle du:n:n:o(
This is an "Official list of 111 Registered Teams"; those that have submitted completed packages, by the deadline, and PAID their money. I would assume that their ability to meet all the criteria has yet to be determined (just because they say they get 100mpge, doesn't mean its true).

From the video, it sounds like the next 'phase' of the competition is the DESIGN PHASE, and some of those that you mentioned may be eliminated before they even get to the future PERFORMANCE PHASE.
I don't think the Persu Hybrid will have any problems with the DESIGN PHASE (just ask anyone on this Forum), but they will have to have a vehicle ready for the testing in the PERFORMANCE PHASE (??time frame??), before they can enter the actual RACE PHASE to begin in May 2010. If I understood what the video was saying.

How many vehicle will actually be on the 'starting line' next year is still "to be determined"!:burning:rubber:

[Derwin]

Great post, AZE!

It seems we aren't the ONLY ones that are being kept in the dark regarding the Persu Hybrid. At least we have a direct line to officials, though.

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

Excellent find AZE!!!! That was enlightening! I was really interested to see that the ALE' guys are looking at a $40,000 price tag on a series hybrid version of their original concept!

[Mark Tomlinson]

... As far as Persu is concerned, they want to create a production vehicle that is "low cost" and have a retail price of around $20,000 to $25,000. So what they "could" do is create a vehicle that is "production quality/capable" with better batteries and other features that are extremely expensive. This vehicle would then qualify and meet all of the criteria for the contest. Then the ACTUAL production vehicle that they go to market with can be one that simply does not have the expensive batteries, etc.
Oh, but I beg to differ with you. Read the section I quoted above, especially...

Vehicles must be capable of being manufactured in quantities of 10,000 per year, with vehicle production costs within levels consistent with historical examples of comparable vehiclesThis, alone, limits the entrant vehicle's cost to something salable. Then take it in the context of the spirit of the X-Prize, which is reiterated throughout the guidelines and the site.

The PIAXP will encourage production-capable vehicles and vehicle modifications (not concept cars or experimental products) through tough entrance requirements, judging criteria, performance tests, and a stage race that together evaluate manufacturability, marketability, safety, durability and performance. The PIAXP will devote considerable traditional and online media resources to public outreach, education, and involvement.See what I mean? If the entrant vehicle is exorbitantly expensive because it has a huge battery pack, it is a one-off and not marketable. If they scale back the batteries to make it marketable, they may not reach 100 MPGe. They could lie about the cost of the vehicle or say they are expecting technology break-throughs to reduce cost, but that throws the manufacturability and the business plan out the window.

The only course of action remaining is to build a 100MPGe vehicle that they intend to sell. And that makes me very happy.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Now, can onyone explain to me in simple terms how hydrogen vehicles meet this rule?
They don't.

[Mark Tomlinson]

... Now, if the "production costs" are way to high (as may be with the Tesla), then they won't qualify. ...
Derwin
The production costs have to be "within levels consistent with historical examples of comparable vehicles". The Model S (which I have confirmed Tesla is entering) is designed to turn a profit at the base price of around $57,000, which is actually lower than comparable luxury sedans. It's all part of their Secret Master Plan (http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=8).

[Derwin]

The production costs have to be "within levels consistent with historical examples of comparable vehicles". The Model S (which I have confirmed Tesla is entering) is designed to turn a profit at the base price of around $57,000, which is actually lower than comparable luxury sedans. It's all part of their Secret Master Plan (http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=8).

Well, then I guess this is all very subjective.

Who and how exactly do they determine what a "comparable vehicle" is when there is NOTHING to compare the Persu Hybrid to! I guess the CLOSEST you can get to a comparison is the Carver, and that sells for around $50,000.

So, again, Persu can come out with a vehicle that is "production capable" to meet all of the criteria for the XPrize (with high-ticket batteries, etc.), but go into production with one that may be "trimmed down" a little for price concerns.

Derwin

[Mark Tomlinson]

So, yes, Persu (or any other company) can enter a vehicle in the contest that they don't go to production with. They are not required to go to market with the exact vehicle that they enter into the contest.
Exactly. But the point is that they could go to market with it. The X-Prize officials, of all people, recognize that technology advances and market tastes change. What any company enters into the contest needs to be their best attempt at the time. With the understanding, of course, that the company will continue to develop the vehicle while the contest continues.

[Mark Tomlinson]

When We Last Saw Them: Persu, formerly known at Venture One, was working to bring its three-wheeled concept car into physical reality.

The Changes: Fear of saying anything on record that might interfere with attempts to find funding have driven Persu into silence recently. One source says the team still plans to enter the X-Prize race with the three-wheeled vehicle which can get up to 60 in 6 seconds and bank up to 45 degrees as it corners—the same one it has been promoting for the last six months. When asked if that car had undergone any changes, Persu Founder and Chief Operating Officer Howard Levine stayed true to the team’s silence: “I cannot comment one way or the other.”

The Bottom Line: We received “no comment” to our questions and there has been nothing new but artist renderings to officially come out from the company. Despite all this, they are still entrants to watch out for—if their safety features hold true.Nice to know they haven't singled us out for the silent treatment.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Well, then I guess this is all very subjective.

Who and how exactly do they determine what a "comparable vehicle" is when there is NOTHING to compare the Persu Hybrid to! I guess the CLOSEST you can get to a comparison is the Carver, and that sells for around $50,000.

So, again, Persu can come out with a vehicle that is "production capable" to meet all of the criteria for the XPrize (with high-ticket batteries, etc.), but go into production with one that may be "trimmed down" a little for price concerns.

DerwinHeck, I should just IM you.

Your right, it is subjective. But for X-Prize to make the requirement, they have to have some way to back up the judges' decision. I'm thinking they will have a panel of PHDs evaluate everything. Since it's up to them to decide, I guess we have to wait.

As far as comparable goes, I thought about that too. In the Alternative Class, there will be a lot of unique vehicle. Maybe they'll just look at two-seater commuter cars like the Smart.

One way to do what you suggest is to offer high mileage as an expensive option and then enter the fully loaded model. But that's risky if the judges decide the "option" is unrealistic.

We're not going to agree on this one. But one thing I think we can agree on is that this confirms they are doing something! Not entirely, no. But it sets a deadline by which we'll know.

[ziggy951]

Is there a cost associated with entering into the X-prize?


Z

[MVRacing]

One way to do what you suggest is to offer high mileage as an expensive option and then enter the fully loaded model. But that's risky if the judges decide the "option" is unrealistic.

But one thing I think we can agree on is that this confirms they are doing something! .

Humm, some good points. I'd be willing to bet they could increase the battery pack size to get 100 miles electric for 10 to 15K, making their overall price 30-40K ... not unrealistic IMHO. We have seen other concepts offer a larger/longer range battery packs as options.

Agreed, I for one am waiting to see what they come out with.

[MikeB]

Humm, some good points. I'd be willing to bet they could increase the battery pack size to get 100 miles electric for 10 to 15K, making their overall price 30-40K ... not unrealistic IMHO. We have seen other concepts offer a larger/longer range battery packs as options.

This is almost exactly what I was thinking. Persu is aiming to sell a production car in the $20-25k range, but the vehicle submitted to the competition competition might have an extra $5k of battery. Frankly, $5k buys a great deal of battery range for a small vehicle.

There was at least one indication that Persu was thinking of making a bigger battery as an optional upgrade, for those willing to pay for it, I think it was in one of the survey questions we got. Also, having a smaller base battery and an optional upgrade makes a great deal of business sense, since different buyers will have different needs.

If the base vehicle can't compete in the Xprize, but the upgraded one can, then this is a no-brainer decision, the upgrade gets submitted to the competition. Persu could even submit a business plan showing both a base vehicle and an upgraded model, and then abandon the upgraded model down the road if market research showed that it wasn't viable.

[Derwin]

Humm, some good points. I'd be willing to bet they could increase the battery pack size to get 100 miles electric for 10 to 15K, making their overall price 30-40K ... not unrealistic IMHO.


That's exactly what I posted from the beginning! Persu could enter the contest with a vehicle that has more expensive options just to qualify for the XPrize. Those "extra options" may lift the price up to something that they would NOT want to actually go to market with, but it would qualify them for the contest.

Then they would simply actually go to production with a model that was "stripped down" a bit to meet the target price range of $20,000 to $25,000.

That's my ONLY point in this conversation. The vehicle would be basically and fundamentally the same as the production vehicle, but just "goosed up" with more expensive batteries and other components.

Derwin

[waboom]

Is there a cost associated with entering into the X-prize?


Z

I believe that if you registered before November 1, 2008, the preliminary event entry fee was $5,000. If you registered after that date the fee was $7,500.

If, after the preliminary events, you've had a chance to scope out the competition and think you'll do well in the finals, it's another $5,000 to compete in the finals. So all told, if you're doing the full competition, it would cost you either $10,000 or $12,500.

[rogwild]

I figured that I'd check the "FlyTheRoad" Official Site to see if they said anything about becoming an X-Prize Contestant.
NO "X-Prize" logo on the [Home] page; and in the [News] tab:

" As we continue to define a fresh identity that reflects our work to delineate a new segment of urban transportation, we have decided that now is the right time to introduce a new approach for communicating our key milestones on the way to eventual production and sales of the Persu Hybrid.

While this new page is under construction, you might check out our list of FAQs.

Thanks!

Persu Mobility."
OLD....OLD....OLD....
Seems like they are also SLOW at keeping their website current.

[rogwild]

Anyone 'up' on the Auto X-Prize 'schedule', and know what the NEXT PHASE is, and when it is scheduled to conclude? Seems like they have a lot to do with the 111 entrants before the first of the 'Road Stages'. Weren't they originally scheduled to have some Road Event starting in New York City around Sep. 2009? Seems like their 'Forum' is currently "Under Revision" and is READ ONLY, so difficult to get current info.

[PHEVadvocate]

It shows them as a regestered team, But it sounds like it is not a done deal until all the team signs a Master Team Agreement (MTA) upon its release later this year.

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/teams

[rogwild]

I'm sure the MTA is just a 'formality' to get ALL teams on the 'same sheet of music' after some of the rule and prize money allocation changes since the contest started. What I would really like to know is the different 'stages' of the X-Prize contest (business plan evaluation, vehicle safety inspections, performance/economy evaluation, and 'stage races') begin and conclude. Perhaps the MTA will have it all 'spelled out'!

[rogwild]

In a recent press release:
http://autoblog.xprize.org/axp/2009/06/piaxp-responds-to-hp2g-claims.html

it was stated that; " the upcoming Design Judging Phase of the competition ", so perhaps that is the next 'hurdle' for PM. With their most recent design that they have of the Venture One/Persu Hybrid, there should be no problem qualifying for a vehicle design that "People will want to BUY"........just ask anyone on this Forum!!!!dr:ive1)

No dates were given for the beginning or end of this 'Judging Phase'.

[rogwild]

Too bad that these guys:
http://www.hp2g.com/
will no longer be in the Auto X-Prize. Seems like they did not get their 'paperwork' entered in time. They claim to have a 400hp V-8 (in a late model Mustang) running on E85 that develops 400lbs of torque, does 0-60mph in 3 sec. and get 110mpg. They say that they 'averaged' over 100mpg driving from Ohio to Las Vegas for a recent Auto Show (SEMA).
But they are planning to produce the engines for sale later this year. A V-8 is probably a little too MUCH for a Persu Hybrid.......but boy would it GO!:burning:rubber:

[esoneson]

Scam.

This was actually shown on 11 PM news on NBC in LA not too long ago.
Fooled them, fooled a lot of people. du:n:n:o(

Just check them out. Google Mustang E85 100 MPG and judge for yourself.

Eric

[rogwild]

Scam.

This was actually shown on 11 PM news on NBC in LA not too long ago.
Fooled them, fooled a lot of people. du:n:n:o(

Just check them out. Google Mustang E85 100 MPG and judge for yourself.

Eric

SCAM, perhaps since it sounds WAY TOO GOOD to be TRUE and flies in the face of common physics and current 'mechanics' theory.

Their 'withdrawal' from the X-Prize competition, would seem to support the 'scam' idea. But they say that they have just opened a new engine production facility (
unveiled his first manufacturing facility at 115 W. Linfoot St. in Wauseon Monday. He plans to initially hire 25 individuals to build his V8 engines, which run exclusively on E85 fuel and achieve the equivalent of 110 miles per gallon, before possibly phasing in 25 additional workers about three months from now. ) and plan to have them in production and for sale by 'late 2009'. I guess we will see.

[Derwin]

Scam.

This was actually shown on 11 PM news on NBC in LA not too long ago.
Fooled them, fooled a lot of people. du:n:n:o(

Just check them out. Google Mustang E85 100 MPG and judge for yourself.

Eric

I happen to agree with your assessment. Any company can make claims (as we have seen with VV/Persu), but where is the proof? It's just might suspicious that they pull out of the XPrize if they really have a viable vehicle.

[dr4]

Hello all,
I'm sorry if I'm behind the times, but I've scoured this site and the internet to try to find our when a team, any team is actually going to run the course in X-prize competition. Anyone know when something is actually going to happen?
Dr 4

[Derwin]

Hello all,
I'm sorry if I'm behind the times, but I've scoured this site and the internet to try to find our when a team, any team is actually going to run the course in X-prize competition. Anyone know when something is actually going to happen?
Dr 4

Here is a link to all of the contestants who are actually registered to present a vehicle in the XPrize contest:

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/teams

One thing that you'll notice is that Persu Mobility is listed, and should be presenting the vehicle.

Here's the link to the official website of the contest:

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/

I searched the site, and all I could find for dates is a mention that the contest will "culminate" in 2 dramatic races that were to take place in 2009 and 2010. Here is the quote from the site:


The competition will comprise two vehicle classes: Mainstream and Alternative. Mainstream vehicles will be required to carry four or more passengers, have four or more wheels, and allow for a 200-mile range. Alternative-class vehicles will be required to carry two or more passengers, have no constraints on the number of wheels, and allow for a 100-mile range. All vehicles will need to meet requirements for performance and features to make the cars attractive to consumers. The competition will culminate with two dramatic, long-distance stage races in 2009-2010 – a Qualifying Race and the Grand Prize Final Race. Race courses will reflect typical consumer driving patterns during numerous stages, in varied terrain, communities, and weather conditions. To win, vehicles must complete both races with the lowest overall time averaged over all scoring stages while still meeting the requirements for 100 MPGe fuel economy and low emissions of carbon dioxide and other pollutants. The $10 million prize purse will be split 3:1 between the winners of the Mainstream and Alternative classes. Final guidelines will be published shortly.

Has anybody else found anymore details?

Derwin

[rickb]

I have no additional details but I can predict the winner of the Alternative-Class Vehicles.

[dr4]

I searched the site, and all I could find for dates is a mention that the contest will "culminate" in 2 dramatic races that were to take place in 2009 and 2010. Here is the quote from the site:


Derwin[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Derwin,
I saw this rather vague reference and someone had better get their A-- in gear if they're going to do something this year. I find all this VV, Persu, X-prize stuff rather a put off.

[Derwin]

I find all this VV, Persu, X-prize stuff rather a put off.


Well, I can assure you of one thing for certain... The people at Persu are not focused exclusively on this XPrize contest at all. They are focused on getting a vehicle put together for the marketplace, and if they don't make the XPrize, then so be it.

I was told this by a member of the Persu team personally. He said that the XPrize is nice, but the important thing that they are working on, and the thing that has their complete attention, is creating a vehicle for mass production.

I still hope they present something in time for the XPrize, though.

Derwin

[rickb]

It seems to me that a professional design team should be able to multi-task and focus on both designing a vehicle for mass production while meeting the XPrize criteria, since the XPrize criteria is to design a high mpg vehicle that can be mass produced, unless of course there is no way to reach the MPG requirements. If that's the case they may as well pull out of the XPrize competiion. A share of the $10 million would make a below average bonus for PM's CEO so meager amounts of money isn't their focus. Although a win would certainly generate more interest and sales for PM one day....................hopefully, one day soon.

[Derwin]

It seems to me that a professional design team should be able to multi-task and focus on both designing a vehicle for mass production while meeting the XPrize criteria...

I believe that is what they are doing. But they are FOCUSING on developing a vehicle for mass production. If this mass production vehicle does not meet the XPrize requirments, then I guess they won't have anything to enter. But we are all guessing at this point in the game.

One thing I know for sure is that they are not creating 2 SEPARATE VEHICLES. They just don't have the funds to build a vehicle specifically for the XPrize contest.

Well, Howard or Phil or Anybody at Persu.... how about giving us a few details about what's going on with the project. We are all anxiously awaiting a good word regarding your progress.

Derwin

[rickb]

I agree with you Derwin and believe the production hybrid vehicle that "is built and being tested" probably is at 75 mpg range. They simply cannot make the 100 mpg XPrize criteria and haved pulled out of the competition. It would be nice of Howard to verify that without jeopordizing any other highly secret PH development plans. I do know who will win the Alternative Vehicle competition.

[Derwin]

I agree with you Derwin and believe the production hybrid vehicle that "is built and being tested" probably is at 75 mpg range. They simply cannot make the 100 mpg XPrize criteria and haved pulled out of the competition.

Hold on, Henry! I never said that they "pulled out" of the XPrize game. Actually, last I heard they are still in it. One thing that you have to remember is that their vehicle WILL qualify even if it only gets 75mpg because of the electric factor. We've had this discussion before pertaining to the exact formula the XPrize people are using to determine if a vehicle qualifies or not. From what I recall, they mix together the electric factor with the fuel consumption to come up with the final number.

For the Persu Hybrid, they claim it will be getting around 75mpg. But when you work the forumula provided by the contest, it should meet the 100mpg requirment.


I do know who will win the Alternative Vehicle competition.

I know who I WANT to win!

:burning:rubber:

Derwin

[dr4]

Well, I can assure you of one thing for certain... The people at Persu are not focused exclusively on this XPrize contest at all. They are focused on getting a vehicle put together for the marketplace, and if they don't make the XPrize, then so be it.

Yes, but the reason I'm so interested in the XPrize date is that if Persu shows, then that will be proof that they are interested in more than just pocketing a bunch of venture capital. See what I mean?

[Derwin]

Yes, but the reason I'm so interested in the XPrize date is that if Persu shows, then that will be proof that they are interested in more than just pocketing a bunch of venture capital.


Yep. That would indeed be "proof". But I think that there is also a great deal of proof in regards to them being SERIOUS about developing and building this vehicle. The fact that Howard himself has worked day and night in a tireless effort to get the laws changed in regards to vehicles in this class, is proof enough for me. Actually, it's that as well as the other things that Ian shared with us over the past couple years.

By the way, Howard not only did a great deal of lobbying in regards to this, but legislation actually got passed as a result of his efforts. If this were all just a grab for "investment money", then I highly doubt all this effort would have been invested in doing these kind of things.

As with all things, I guess time will tell.

Derwin

[waboom]

By the way, Howard not only did a great deal of lobbying in regards to this, but legislation actually got passed as a result of his efforts. If this were all just a grab for "investment money", then I highly doubt all this effort would have been invested in doing these kind of things.
Derwin

Yeah, but if you remember the newspaper article writeup (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=447) about the legislation effort, Persu (nee Venture Vehicles) was upfront with the fact that the legislation would make it easier for them to obtain financing (see third sentence.) So while there was a benefit to the end user of the vehicle in passing the legislation, there was also a more immediate need for Persu to use it to help secure their next round of financing. Howard had to do the lobbying that he did, and get the bill passed when he did, to ensure the company would have a better chance for new financing. No financing, no Persu.

Not disagreeing, Derwin. Just pointing out what Howard's priority was at the time.

[wireman]

Not disagreeing, Derwin. Just pointing out what Howard's priority was at the time.
agr:1 With both of thee! In this case, the needs of the company matched up perfectly with the eventual vehicle owner's.

[MikeB]

New press release from X-Prize:
press release (http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/news-events/press-release/progressive-insurance-automotive-x-prize-announces-teams-qualified-to-comp)


On October 19th, the Progressive Insurance Automotive X PRIZE announced the 43 Qualified Teams (http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/teams) who received passing scores from the Design Judges and are therefore qualified to progress to the next stage of the competition. The Design Judging process, whereby a team of select automotive experts evaluated 97 registered entries reduced the field by more than half. The remaining teams will bring a total of 53 vehicles (28 Mainstream and 25 Alternative Class) into the next stage of the competition.
Qualified Teams have passed two hurdles – the Registration process and Design Judging. The next phase of the competition is the technical qualifiers, which begin in Spring 2010.
Yes, Persu is listed as a Qualified Team, so they are still in the running (as least as far as the X-Prize people are concerned).

[Peter]

Of most interest to me is the following:

"Teams that have passed this most recent phase of judging have proven to the competition’s automotive and technical experts that their vehicles will be available in time for formal vehicle challenges next spring, will be production capable, and can plausibly meet or exceed the competition requirements."

so next spring, eh?

[Derwin]

Well, this is good news even if it was expected.

The design of the Persu Hybrid was never in question, and I think we can all agree about that. So now they have passed the "registration" hurdle, as well as the "design" hurdle. I think the next hurdle is a given as well, since it has to do with the "technical" aspects of the vehicle.

The hurdle that I think we ALL are waiting to see Persu pass is the actual construction of the vehicle. Once they achieve this, and show it to the world, then that's when the fun begins!

Derwin

[rickb]

Well, this is good news even if it was expected.

The design of the Persu Hybrid was never in question, and I think we can all agree about that. So now they have passed the "registration" hurdle, as well as the "design" hurdle. I think the next hurdle is a given as well, since it has to do with the "technical" aspects of the vehicle.

The hurdle that I think we ALL are waiting to see Persu pass is the actual construction of the vehicle. Once they achieve this, and show it to the world, then that's when the fun begins!

Derwin
Derwin...........I believe the actual vehicle is built and it is simply under wraps for some later formal announcement. If it isn't built by now after the time frame and $6mil.............it aint gonna happen.

[wireman]

Derwin...........I believe the actual vehicle is built and it is simply under wraps for some later formal announcement. If it isn't built by now after the time frame and $6mil.............it aint gonna happen.
agr:1

[PHEVadvocate]

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/teams/persu-mobility

Notice the Team Facts information found on the right side of the page:

Leader Name: Howard Levine
Vehicle Name: Persu
Location: California (USA)
Fuel Type: Electric
Class: Alternative
Website: www.commutercars.com (http://www.persumobility.com/) (links to the old never updated webpage).

[Derwin]

The information that you posted must be wrong, PHEV. Howard is no longer the "leader" of Persu Mobility. They have a new CEO that has a great deal of experience in the auto industry.

And the link you posted points to a DIFFERENT domain than what it says. But if you put in your browser the domain www.commutercars.com (http://commutercars.com), you will be taken to the "Tango" website which is very interesting.


<object width="580" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1ghsR0euek8&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1ghsR0euek8&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="580" height="360"></embed></object>


Derwin

[PHEVadvocate]

Why would the link say commutercars, but really point to the Persu site?

Why is Howard still the team leader?

Why is the car Fuel only Electric?

Lots of questions? :confused:

[Derwin]

Why would the link say commutercars, but really point to the Persu site?

Why is Howard still the team leader?

Why is the car Fuel only Electric?

Lots of questions? :confused:

Well, the link takes you to the correct website of Persu Mobility, so there's no problem with that. I think the webmaster of the XPrize site must have just made a mistake in listing it as "commutercars.com". So that's pretty easy to explain.

Now why they still have Howard listed as the team leader I do not know. Well, he may be the "team leader" of the Persu project, but we know he is no longer the CEO of Persu.

It lists the "Fuel Type" as electric. Hmmm. That's curious, but I wouldn't read too much into it. It could just be another mistake on the part of the website people.

Derwin

[MVRacing]

It lists the "Fuel Type" as electric. Hmmm. That's curious, but I wouldn't read too much into it. It could just be another mistake on the part of the website people.

I noticed that also ... I think it is because the (proposed?) vehicle IS driven by an electric motor with an ICE range extender. It does not say "electric only". If you follow the link it takes you back to the same old Pursue page showing the 6 gal fuel tank (5 usable) we've seen for a year now.

[cobraphx]

What I do find a bit disappointing is the no-show for Persu at the X-Prize display at SEMA 2009. Seems that about 10 of the 43 teams actually made it. to SEMA, but Persu wasn't one of them. Which is in contrast to being one of only # teams displayed around the podium at the Automotive X-Prize Kickoff ceremony.

Doesn't mean anything concrete one way or the other. But if they had shown up to SEMA with a prototype, I'd be elated.

And the waiting continues...

[rickb]

What I do find a bit disappointing is the no-show for Persu at the X-Prize display at SEMA 2009. Seems that about 10 of the 43 teams actually made it. to SEMA, but Persu wasn't one of them. Which is in contrast to being one of only # teams displayed around the podium at the Automotive X-Prize Kickoff ceremony.

Doesn't mean anything concrete one way or the other. But if they had shown up to SEMA with a prototype, I'd be elated.

And the waiting continues...

I would be worried if Persu was the only no-show. We can still anticipate elation while we "wait" for PM officials to rip the cover off the Persu Hybrid production vehicle. I think they should send us all tickets to the "big show" when it finally happens. Wouldn't that be a FTRC adventure party.

[Derwin]

I would be worried if Persu was the only no-show.

agr:1 That would worry me also.


We can still anticipate elation while we "wait" for PM officials to rip the cover off the Persu Hybrid production vehicle. I think they should send us all tickets to the "big show" when it finally happens. Wouldn't that be a FTRC adventure party.

Absolutely. And that may not be too far fetched, either.

I can absolutely request tickets for some lucky club members when we reach that time. thu:mbs:up:22

Derwin

[rickb]

agr:1 That would worry me also.



Absolutely. And that may not be too far fetched, either.

I can absolutely request tickets for some lucky club members when we reach that time. thu:mbs:up:22

Derwin

If PM officials would just give you a heads up on the official unvieling date and location..........those of us that have interest could be there to show support, put our hands on the actual Persu Hybrid, followed up with a few beers to celebrate the announcement. It could be a pre-rally moment.:Beer: