100mpg Water Hybrid??

[Derwin]

I'm sure most of you know about the man who died back around 10 years ago who claimed he invented a way to run a car on water. Well, it seems there are others who have taken up his cause.

I just came across this website that sells a "kit" telling you how to convert your current vehicle into a Gas/Water-Burning Hybrid. I am really tempted to send them my 50 bucks for the kit, but thought I would ask fellow members about this first.

Here is a video that they have on their website:

IhSP8b1OBAg

Please go to this website, and tell me what you think. I need your opinoin:

http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/

Thanks,

Derwin

P.S. I have no idea whether this is a scam, or the real deal. So please give me some input.

[MVRacing]

I've seen a couple shows on tv that tested different mileage bossters like this and the "Tornado" ect ... none of them worked.

[Baja_Traveler]

Yea - we studied water injection in my power technology class in college. An automotive engine can take in a remarkable amount of water before stalling - the instructor used a dishwashing liquid bottle full of water and squirted it as hard as he could directly into the intake. Engine took it fine with tons of steam coming out the exhaust, but when we did it on a chasis dyno we actually saw the engine was making less power. As a by product the saturated steam is very corrosive to the steel engine components, rusting them, and the exhaust train out in no time.

[Derwin]

Supposedly, the water is being used as a fuel. I guess they actuall extract the hydrogen from it, and then turn it into an energy that can power the vehicle. This is not a mere mileage booster. This claims to be far more than just that.

If anybody knows about this process, and if it is legitimate, please post your thoughts here. As I said, I have no clue as to whether this is true or not, but I'm on the verge of spending 50 bucks on it! That's why I need your help.

Derwin

[PBSmith]

It looks like they claim to convert the water into HHO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HHO_gas#HHO_gas through electrolysis which is then fed into the combustion chamber with the gas to aid in gas milage. This next link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car talks about different automotive uses and their efficiencies. The question I have is do you get enough HHO from the excess electricity in the electrical system to truly aid in powering the vehicle, or would you be better off using the same electricity to power an electric motor to aid in turning the wheels. At that point we are back to a hybrid.

[Derwin]

It looks like they claim to convert the water into HHO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HHO_gas#HHO_gas through electrolysis which is then fed into the combustion chamber with the gas to aid in gas milage.

Yes, this is what I read as well. They also seem to make the claim that the entire vehicle can be operated on this HHO alone, without ANY gas. Could this be true?? I find it VERY hard to believe! If it is true, then why in the world aren't vehicles being made with this technology?

I'm probably a little gullible about all of this, but I just had to post this to see what more knowledgeable people would say. Should I buy the kit that the company sells, and then convert my little tracker? Or, should I just ignore this?

Derwin

[PBSmith]

Check the second link that I posted. scroll down to the Garrett electrolytic carburetor section. Unless I'm totally blind it would seem to me that any all HHO system would use more electricity from the batteries then it could produce to recharge them.

Then there is the question from my first post. Can you get enough HHO from the electical system without putting any strain on the engine to assist the gasoline in powering the engine? If your tracker is your only vehicle I dont think I would, but if it is a project car it might be interesting to try it after you set what its current base level milage is.

I think Myth Busters toyed with this idea on one of their shows.

[WarpedOne]

The question I have is do you get enough HHO from the excess electricity in the electrical system to truly aid in powering the vehicle, or would you be better off using the same electricity to power an electric motor to aid in turning the wheels. At that point we are back to a hybrid.

There is no excess electricity in the car electrical system as long you do not mount additional batteries and charge them from the wall outlet.

All electrical energy in standard car came from the ICE/burned gas itself at some mandatory thermal losses. You than use that electrical energy to produce HHE from water with additional thermal and other energy losses and then burn it again at less then optimal conditions which mean additional energy loss. The net result is your average power and millage drops.

There were some successful experiments with water injection but it was used in other processes - cooling intake air, cooling engine walls, reducing the burning temperature to reduce NOx emissions etc, but not as a H source. Energy equation prevents any energy gains where you must at first brake H20 into HHO gas and then again burn it back into H20. If that was possible all our energy needs would be fullfiled. And even more than that, the whole universe would be much much different.

[Derwin]

Energy equation prevents any energy gains where you must at first brake H20 into HHO gas and then again burn it back into H20. If that was possible all our energy needs would be fullfiled. And even more than that, the whole universe would be much much different.

So, I guess your opinion of this would be that it is all HYPE, and that I should not waste my time and/or money?

C'mon, fellas.......I need some more input!

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

Hey Big D,
I say save your money! HHO Has to many draw backs using current technology. It requires more energy to make then the amount of energy you get out of it! Every science experiment I have seen done on HHO has been truly remarkable. I am always astounded by the idea that you can take water and make a fuel out of it. However, when shown how many joules of energy it takes to create it, compared to how many joules of energy it creates, the logic in the idea is lost! Many scientist and even just ordinary inventors have tried to create a more energy efficient way to produce HHO but have failed. Some have claimed to figure it out but were later always found to be a hoax. From what I have read and understand about HHO for every joule of energy produced they use from 30 to 40 joules. This doesn't convert into energy efficiency. So my suggestion would be a big no, save your money!

[jalpa350]

There's a fundamental law of physics known as the First Law of Thermodynamics which basically states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. In lay terms, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Any system which claims to get "free" energy from something like water is an obvious hoax. Also, why would anyone sell a product which would save you thousands of dollars for a mere $50?

[Mark Tomlinson]

There's a fundamental law of physics known as the First Law of Thermodynamics which basically states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. In lay terms, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Any system which claims to get "free" energy from something like water is an obvious hoax. Also, why would anyone sell a product which would save you thousands of dollars for a mere $50?
Exactly.

So let's follow this through, shall we? The battery supplies energy to split the water into HHO. The HHO supplies the energy to power the engine. And the engine supplies the energy to turn the alternator, which provides energy to the battery. So with an impossible 100% efficiency, you get a perpetual motion machine that doesn't provide enough energy to move the vehicle.

Now throw in the fact that an internal combustion engine is (at best) 20% efficient, and you lose over 80% of your energy just sitting in your driveway with the radio turned off.

Where, you may ask, does the energy come from when you burn gasoline? The sun. Not the sun you see shining today, but the sun of a million years ago. Plants and animals absorbed energy and stored it. They were reduced with time and pressure to oil, but the the first law of thermodynamics dictates that the stored energy remained. Water doesn't contain stored energy, and is useless as a fuel because you have to add energy to make the unstable HHO which dumps all it's energy potential when it returns to water.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Oh, and I learned all this from my brother who will be experimenting with an HHO generator.

Huh?

What he's looking at is not extracting energy from water, but using hydrogen to make gasoline burn more efficiently. A lot of chemistry and physics I don't understand, but essentially he wants to extract more usable energy from gasoline rather then extract any energy from water.

[waboom]

Excellent summary, Mark. Thank your brother for sharing his knowledge with us.

[Derwin]

Mark,

Thank you for that explanation. Wow! Isn't it incredible how these people (low-life's) can prey upon others with a false hope just to make a few dollars? I think it is really sick.

Does that mean that the guy in the 1990's was also a crook? His name was Stanley Meyer. He seemed to be really sincere with his invention. Does anybody have any detailed information about him?

I know that I sound naive about all of this, and that I may be grasping at straws, but I find it hard to believe that all of these guys were either delusional in some way, or they were all outright crooks. But I guess it wouldn't surprise me!

I realize that this may be "old information" to a lot of you, but here is a paragraph about this guy:


Water fueled Car

It Runs on Water is a video with Stanley Meyer demonstrating the water fuel cell in a car. Meyer claimed that he could run a 1.6 liter Volkswagen Dune Buggy on water instead of gasoline. He replaced the spark plugs with "injectors" to spray a fine mist into the engine cylinders, which he claimed were electrified at a resonant frequency. The fuel cell would split water into hydrogen and oxygen gas, which would combust back into water vapor in a conventional hydrogen engine to produce net energy. Estimates made showed that only 22 US gallons (83 L) of water were required to travel from one US coast to the other. Meyer also demonstrated his vehicle for his city's local news station Action 6 News. A video of the buggie in action can be found here.


Derwin

[VV_me_brah]

I am by no means an expert at all on this topic, but I also saw something that said it took a quite a bit more energy to break down the water than the amount of energy you could get out of it by burning the gas, making it a usless source. Please correct me or add on if you know more. I think this is an extremely interesting topic but does not seem feasible for the time being.

[cpaddock]

Here's another one! On June 20, 2008 a "Perpetual Motion Generator" which can be used to run an electrical generator will be unveiled to a skeptical world. You can check it out
at www.surphzup.com
Even if this is science fiction, it sure is intriging. But don't get your hopes up! :)

[PBSmith]

Oh, and I learned all this from my brother who will be experimenting with an HHO generator.

Huh?

What he's looking at is not extracting energy from water, but using hydrogen to make gasoline burn more efficiently. A lot of chemistry and physics I don't understand, but essentially he wants to extract more usable energy from gasoline rather then extract any energy from water.

This is what I was trying to get at. Your standard car is already driving down the road, burning gasoline, turning the altinator producing electricity to charge the battery and power the vehicle. If you turn on the radio, plug in your cell phone, use your GPS, etc...does this make the engine burn more gasoline(i.e. make the altinator harder to turn for the engine)? I believe their concept is to use electricity already being produced by the altinator to power the electrolysis, then feed the resulting HHO back into the engine to increase the efficiency of the gasoline.

Another concept would be to use the heat that is the thermal loss to power a small steam turbine. Either a completely external system useing the surface heat of the engine or redesign the engine to allow the water in the cooling system to get just hot enough to power a steam turbine before being condensed/cooled and cycled back into the engine for cooling. In theory, once the system reaches the optimum temperature the altinator could be removed from the mechanical system. Use an electric water pump to remove another need for mechanical power. Using the heat from the engine to heat the water would also make the electrolysis more efficient. The idea here is to use the work already being done to help feed energy back into the system to make it more efficient. We all know that it can never be perfectly efficient.

[Scurvy]

I have a great idea! If you put a wind turbine on the top of the VentureOne, you can use the energy from the wind moving past your car to propel you forward! The faster you go, the more energy you get! BRILLIANT!

[cpaddock]

And here's another overlooked source of energy that is being tapped into for real:
Traffic. Specifically trucks passing over pressure plates that squeeze hydraulic
fluids thru electrical generators. 1st test installation provides enough energy for 1000
homes! I'd buy their stock if I could remember where I saw this. Also, A123 has a diversified client list, not just GM. They ARE the ones to watch. www.autobloggreen.com
has become my 2nd favorite web site. This forum being #1, of course! Maui is putting in
a wave power generator facility on the North shore, and is becoming a leader in renewable energy technologies.
Curves Ahead!

[waboom]

Looks like Scott Adams was watching our thread...:LOL:

http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-05-02/

[Derwin]

Waboom, good one!.....

http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/00000/2000/200/2983/2983.strip.gif

[WarpedOne]

If you turn on the radio, plug in your cell phone, use your GPS, etc...does this make the engine burn more gasoline(i.e. make the altinator harder to turn for the engine)?

Yes, it makes the engine burn more gasoline for the same distance traveled at the same speed. You probably do not notice that because the change is "only" few percent.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Yes, it makes the engine burn more gasoline for the same distance traveled at the same speed. You probably do not notice that because the change is "only" few percent.Exactly. Think of regenerative braking, or hub-motors specifically. By putting energy in, the motors propel the vehicle. But by drawing energy off, the motors drag the vehicle to a stop.

The same thing is true with your alternator - the more energy you use, the harder it becomes to turn. And the harder it is to turn, the more gasoline you need to burn.

Since water does not store any energy, then the energy from burning HHO must be supplied during the electrolysis process that turns water into HHO. So, if you need a lot of energy to move the vehicle, then it has to take a lot of energy to split the water, and hence a huge drain on your alternator. So while the energy used to charge your cell phone is unnoticeable, the energy used to create usable amounts of HHO would certainly be noticeable.

[PBSmith]

So why is my rediculous idea of using engine heat to power a steam turbine starting to sound more reasonable?:eek: Heh, heh, at least that's work that really is already being done.

The problem with any of these ideas, workable or not, is that they are all based on keeping the ICE as the primary drive.

[Mark Tomlinson]

So why is my rediculous idea of using engine heat to power a steam turbine starting to sound more reasonable?:eek: Heh, heh, at least that's work that really is already being done.

The problem with any of these ideas, workable or not, is that they are all based on keeping the ICE as the primary drive.
Check this out from two years ago, http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/bmw_developing_.html. Haven't heard much about it since then, though. I figure it just got too complicated.

You're right that all these ideas keep the ICE as the primary power source. That's why I'm so enamored with the Tesla Roadster. Compare the 90+% efficiency of their custom motor to 20% efficiency of a typical ICE and you begin to see why batteries are so important. Even a series hybrid (electric drive; not a Prius) does far better because the engine can be chosen, tuned, and run for most efficient operation.

But we digress.