$8 a gallon...

[Baja_Traveler]

Listening to CNN on XM this morning - and how we have reached a new record for a barrel of oil (almost $123/barrel). Experts are predicting European gas prices here in the US within 24 months!

While I find it hard to doubt them the way it's been going - It'll be $340 a week to keep my truck going at those rates!

C'mon Ian - every time I visit I see the "Venture Vehicle Forum - Last Post - Never" staring me in the face! We need some news!... Don't make me have to go out and buy a Prius - then I'd be stuck with it because the wife would say it's good enough!! :cry:

[cpaddock]

The depressing part of this (well, one of the depressing parts) is that V V will never be able to make enough units to meet demand. They HAVE to be watching the oil crisis situation and surely know that folks are starting to freak out. Gas theft is on the rise again. People are having to decide between health insurance and gas to get to work.
Dear friends, the party is over. The era of cheap, plentiful oil is now history and it ain't ever going to be like it was. We need a plan, both as individuals and a nation. Forget global warming. The amount of co2 we will be pumping into the atmophere is going to start declining as world oil supplies run out. Forget ethanol. The fertilizers and pesticides
required to produce these massive monoculture crops are petro based. Not to mention the insanity of wasting precious farmland on fuel for a declining suburban dream. We are in deep doodoo and don't really get it. Until recently, my reaction to all this has been to
just "roll a fat one" and sink into the haze of forgetfulness. Then Dr. Ron Paul shook me awake, and "cured my apathy." Doesn't matter that he's not electable. The government is not going to be able to save us. I could go on and on, and probably will.
Curves Ahead!

[Derwin]

Cpaddock

I couldn't agree with you more. The days of $1 per gallon gas are over. I am so glad that you said..."Forget about global warming" also. I think this has been terribly overplayed by people with a vested interest in selling "carbon credits". In my opinion it was nothing but a scam, but I don't really want to get into a debate with anyone about that. The point that you make about the level of co2 going down is very well taken. I don't think we have to worry much about that anymore, and it will definately not be a factor in the long run as these new eco-friendly cars begin rolling off the assemply line.

About Ron Paul. Well, I actually LOVE what this guy has to say about domestic policy. The smaller the government, the better! He just scared me whenever he talked about his idea of foreign policy. If it was not for that, I think he would have received many more votes in the primary. Otherwise, I really like his mindset. Heck, as it looks now, I would take HIM over any one of the 3 that remain!

Just my opinion. ;)

Derwin

[Baja_Traveler]

I actually think that C02 levels will increase as gas fired power plants revert to coal to save cost. But no matter - I've read several studies like this one that go against the doom and gloom theories of a devistated ocean due to low pH (the main carbon sink on our planet). http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/some-plankton-thrive-with-more-co2/

Then visit this site and scroll down to the "Similarities with our Present World" comparison over geologic time, and come to your own conclusions on global warming (very interesting reading under the graph also):
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/Carboniferous_climate.html

The movie Inconvienent Truth conviently stopped their historical timeline to support their own conclusions. Anyone who has studied paleogeology would know different.

Not that I want to start an argument also...=n:

My wanting a VV is for simple monetary selfeshness, not because I think it will save the planet.

[MontyInNJ]

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/index.html

Find a used front driver, and add this kit. Run it till VV delivers.

[Baja_Traveler]

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/index.html

Find a used front driver, and add this kit. Run it till VV delivers.

Hmm... May have to also install one of These (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=30) while I'm at it -

Love the way it bolts right onto the rear quarter sheet metal! First speedbump I hit would tear the thing right off...

[cpaddock]

Sorry Derwin, I'm afraid you misunderstood my comment regarding global warming. I didn't mean to imply that I think it is not happening. On the contrary, I totally believe
we are seeing the beginning of a radical climate shift that will play a huge role in shaping
geo-political events in the coming years. What I was trying to express by saying "forget
global warming" is that an even more dire, sinister, and life-changing catastrophy is coming down the tracks and not one single person will escape its effects. Taht is the decline in production and ever increasing scarcity of crude oil. Expect your standard of living to decline right along with the rise in cost of gas. It is not a pretty picture, but perhaps we got in this predicament because we have been in denial about the finite nature of the primary energy source of human civilization. Cheap, abundant oil has fueled
the "green revolution" in agriculture, making life possible for the now six billion plus souls
on this planet. Without oil that number is simply unsustainable. It is calculated that we have used up approximately half of the world's endowment of hydrocarbons. The remaining half will never be fully extracted because it is of increasingly poorer quality
and in more and more difficult and hostile locations. Extraction will cease when it takes a barrel to get a barrel. What this country doe not have is a plan for what we should do between now and that day, which may be only 30 years away.
So, think it through, and welcome to the 21st century.
Alooooha!

[Derwin]

cpaddock,

I completely understood what you were saying, but I took that one phrase from your comment and magnified it to express what MANY people think. As I said, I sure don't want to get into a debate about this here, and I NEVER said that I did not believe global warming was happening. I just think it has been exaggerated to a great extent for political purposes. And, yes, I do believe the "carbon credit" thing is a scam to make wealthy people feel good about themselves. And, I was agreeing with you in regards to co2 levels dropping as we get more eco-friendly cars on the market.

Hmmmm. It does seem like you misunderstood my response. That's one of the most complained about problems with online communication! Anyway, I hope this cleared it up.

=D

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

We are facing a full economic collapse! The dollar will be worth less then a peso in two years at the rate it is falling and gasoline will be $8 or more a gallon. All consumer product's prices will skyrocket as a result. You will see cars abandoned at the side of the road because the owners couldn't afford the gas to get it back home. Parents will be forced to choose between diapers or food. A single jar of baby food will run you about $4 and a package of diapers close to $45. The country will be owned by China because we have borrowed so much money to purchase barrels of oil! You will see war in the streets of your home town as people fight over food and supplies. We will become what we have referred to as a third world nation. People need to wake up and fast! You don't need to drive a H1 Hummer just to go to your local Starbucks for a nonfat cafe latte! Just because you drive a small car doesn't mean you will be road pizza if you are involved in a traffic collision, if a semi runs over you H1 you are still dead! Top legal speed in the USA is like 80 mph. So, you don't need a Bugatti Veyron that does 200+ mph at like 2 mpg! Learn ways to conserve energy! Buy some solar panels to provide energy for your home, or a windmill! Plan out you trips, so you use less gas! (Many people have begun to do this already!) For God sake buy those stupid energy saving light bulbs for starters! Anything! Just get started now! Greed has played a major roll in the pride before the fall!

[Derwin]

MM89,

Wow! Are you expecting Armageddon soon? ;)

I can't say that I really buy into the "doomsday" scenario that you are painting. This country has gone through far worse times than we are suffering now, and we made it out just fine. But there is so much of this propaganda being distributed by people, that it get's nice folks like you and me all worked-up and excited.

I own a business that imports machines from China and other countries. The dollar is not as strong as it was 2 years ago, and I have to pay more for my imports. But this too shall pass. We also own a swimming pool company, and have been in business since 1999 (you can see our site at www.SwimmingPoolBiz.com ). We are completely booked with people putting in swimming pools in their back yards. These are not "RICH" people, either. They are your normal working-class people that live in Chicagoland. If things were so very bleak, I am sure a new swimming pool would be the last thing on peoples minds. Anyway, just my opinion.


Derwin

**I have edited this post**

[Baja_Traveler]

Nice logical response Derwin. Gas has been $8+ dollars a gallon in Europe for years and they are not succumbing to the appocolypse... Behavior gets modified to account for the conditions.

The United States also has one thing none of the other countries seem to posess - Innovation. How come all these 100+ MPG vehicles are being designed and built here in the States - when fuel costs have been more than double elsewhere. There has been an economic stimulus over there far longer - and they should already have roads full of these vehicles, but they don't.

China will never "Own" the United States for that reason - they will just be the hub of cheap manufacturing for the world. Heck - they killed everyone who had an education during their last "Cultural Revolution"...

[cpaddock]

People of Earth....this is a very interesting thread indeed. Note how MM89 places all his
comments in the future tense: this stuff is going to happen soon. And Derwin places
his observations on the present and past: We are not there yet. At least not in this country. But the times they are a' changin'. China, China, China. What will you do when
the US economy weakens and we can't keep absorbing your exports? The container
ships use oil to ply the seas and this will cause the price of your goods to climb ever higher. You have a population bomb ticking away, environmental degradation to the extreme, very little oil of your own, and are industrializing like there is no tomorrow.
If you are standing on a train track and the locomotive is barreling down on you and your feet are made of clay, you had best be afraid. Be very afraid. Or DO SOMETHING!
We need to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Hell, we need to reduce our dependence on oil, period. My friends, the storm clouds are gathering. It is healthy and indeed a necessary first step to acknowledge this fact. You are driving down the highway and the fuel gauge is nearing empty. Do you ease up on the gas pedal and try to coast along till you reach a gas station? Or do you drive extra fast in the hopes that you can get there quick enough to escape the inevitable? I feel "Amaggedon" and "Apocolypse" are too fancy terms for what is about to happen. They shift the responsibility away from ourselves and lay the blame on some sort of higher power(s).
This leads to in-action and apathy. Technology may yet "save" us but we will never be able to continue consuming in the "style to which we have become accostomed".
A huge shift of consciouness, a new paradigm, a new way of being on the planet and with each other is absolutely required or we are indeed doomed to a scenario of merciless anarchy. This will take leadership by awakened and inspired people. It begins with each individual opening their minds and hearts and trying to become aware of the effects of our actions.
Over....

[Derwin]

Note how MM89 places all his
comments in the future tense: this stuff is going to happen soon. And Derwin places
his observations on the present and past:


-I simply take the view that our world is valuable.
-We need to keep it safe.
-We need less pollution.
-We need alternatives to a dwindling supply of oil.
-We need freedom from the stranglehold that the Mideast has on us in regards to oil.
-And, We need to live as if this world is our home....because it is, obviously.

I simply will not accept a doomsday scenario for the future. This is NOT having "my head in the sand", but it is taking a look at EVERY element that makes this country strong. Yes, I do agree that we need to "wake-up", but I think we need to wake up and see the GOOD that is within our reach, and actually coming upon us in the very near future. This is what I choose to focus on.

If an "Apocalypse" or "Armageddon" happens, it won't be because of any "higher power". It will be because of our own stupidity. But to claim that the "end is near" is not helping the situation. Companies, like Venture Vehicles, are doing what they can to create products that will free us from oil dependency. There are many other things that are being done to help in this endeavor. I just don't think it's good to focus on the negative. Recognizing the negative, and then acting in a POSITIVE way to change things is the way to go IMHO.

Life is good. And, believe it or not, we still live in the most prosperous country on the planet. This is something we can all be grateful for.

Sorry if I went on a rant here, but once I began, I found it hard to stop! :o

Derwin

P.S. I hope my views have not "alienated" anyone.

**I have edited this post**

[cpaddock]

Derwin, you have not alienated anyone. I really appreciate your candidness and willingness to share varied viewpoints.
Past IS prolog. Take Easter Island. They cut down all their trees, devastated their ecology and perished. Take the Roman Empire. They imported vast numbers of poor uneducated workers who did not speak "Roman", and their civilization was ruined.
Current projections regarding "Peak Oil" are not prophecies, but basic math. I, and anyone else can be a prophet of doom by simply stating that if you keep driving you will
run out of gas. This is not pessimism but a call to action.
By the way, I LOVE a debate. Few things are so stimulating and thought inducing.
More to come.....

[Mike kZ]

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/index.html

Find a used front driver, and add this kit. Run it till VV delivers.


This is a really cool idea! I wonder if it would actually work.

[MontyInNJ]

This is a really cool idea! I wonder if it would actually work.


Actually I was at Alpha-Core http://www.alphacore.com/ for some parts. These guys are a top notch motor winding company. Permanent Magnet, Axial Field (PMAF) motors are a specialty. The idea is real and also entered in X-Prize (Alpha-Core/Poulsen Hybrid®) no post on the WEB as to when production will start. I have a spare 97 GTI with 2.0 5/speed, (4x100 bolt pattern) so the kit will fit. The Torque bar attaches to the frame. Worth watching.....till the VV gets going.... Monty

[Derwin]

These guys are a top notch motor winding company. Permanent Magnet, Axial Field (PMAF) motors are a specialty. The idea is real and also entered in X-Prize (Alpha-Core/Poulsen Hybrid®)


That really does look amazing. Is this available NOW? Will it go on a little chevy tracker? (my run-about car!) How much does it cost?

If you can, post some more detailed information about this here, or, better yet, start a NEW THREAD dedicated to this thing. I think it is something that can help people here and now while waiting for the V1 to come out.

I look forward to hearing more about it. Thanks again!

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

Ok ok ok! Here let me put it this way! (I stress this first word) If we continue to act as if energy is free, renewable and abundant, then yes what I described is inevitable! People need to wake up! Vehicles that get less then 15 mpg are a complete and total drain on everyone, not just on those who own them! If I were in charge I would make it a law that any vehicle that gets less then 25 mpg would not be allowed to be sold here in the US, with exceptions for Classic and Antique vehicles. I would also make it a law that if you drive one of these gargantuan SUVs and are by yourself you will be fined $250 and it would be considered a moving violation, with an exception for hauling or towing something that could not be hauled or towed by a smaller vehicle! Now this one I am sure I will catch all kinds of stuff for this but..... I would put sanctions on Nascar and other motor racing organizations that would require them to use electric motors or invest 45% of there total profits toward alternative energy research and development! Entertainment is a wonderful thing, but in this day and age, at the cost of wasting natural resources, it isn't worth it!( sorry Nascar fans! MVRacing I am truly sorry!) I want you all to know that I do not enjoy these ideas in any way however I just think that unfortunately we have waited so long to act that we are now facing this reality to avoid complete melt down!

Derwin, I too believe in the people of this great nation to rise to the occasion, but I also realize that big government and big business is not concerned with the people and only their own pocket! Greed has lead politicians to ignore the people and has put us in this situation. The time for change is long overdue and if we continue to ignore the signs then we will inevitably fall just like the Roman empire! These are not some fanciful predictions these are the reality we face and if we don't act we will be looking down the barrel of a very large gun! Also, you are absolutely right! We are still buying swimming pools and other consumer products! But allow me to explain, I said we need to wake up, this is because people do not see the train wreck ahead! The USA has always been a consumer driven society. We will buy just about anything we think is fun or will make our lives easier! So yes right now your company will continue to be prosperous, But if we don't wake up soon you too will begin to feel the crunch! I am not saying people shouldn't buy swimming pools! Please don't misunderstand, what I am saying is we need to learn to conserve energy!!! that is all! If we don't then when gas hit $8+ per gallon I can assure you the waiting list you speak of will be very small if it even exists!

Also I apologize for the doomsday scenario but sometime that is what it takes to wake people up!

[Derwin]

If I were in charge I would make it a law that any vehicle that gets less then 25 mpg would not be allowed to be sold here in the US, with exceptions for Classic and Antique vehicles. I would also make it a law that if you drive one of these gargantuan SUVs and are by yourself you will be fined $250 and it would be considered a moving violation, with an exception for hauling or towing something that could not be hauled or towed by a smaller vehicle! Now this one I am sure I will catch all kinds of stuff for this but..... I would put sanctions on Nascar and other motor racing organizations....

Hmmmm. Well, I live right down the street from the Chicago Raceway, where they fill the stadium with around 80,000 people when they have races going. NASCAR is the largest sports entertainment in this country. It's bigger than baseball, and bigger than football. What your saying would be the same thing as saying that baseball players can no longer use bats made from wood (because it adds to the depletion of our forests!). I don't think its a good idea, and I don't think your ideas will go over very well at all with the majority of the American people.

Your proposal about penalizing people that drive SUV's is really not well thought out in my honest opinion. I personally LOVE SUV's, and know many other people who love them. No, I no longer own one because I don't want to spend $4.00 every time I go 8 miles down the road! There's no other reason.

My answer to all of your statements is very simple....FREEDOM. It's no more complicated than that. This country was founded on freedom. If and/or WHEN we reach a point in this country when we no longer have any fuel left, then the sale of these SUV's will diminish. But I don't think we are even close to that being the case as of now. 100 years from now....o.k. But not now. If gas goes up to $50 a gallon, people should still have the FREEDOM to own a car that only gets 8mpg. What is wrong with that? If the oil depletes to the point where nobody can afford it but the ultra-rich, so be it! This will give rise to more and more innovation in the transportation industry in answer to the incredible demand that will develop. This is how it has always worked in history. If the world's oil simply disappeared next month, and we no longer had 1 DROP of oil left, this would not be a bad thing. We would then move to alternative fuels and vehicles. I think you underestimate the incredible creativity of the American people, and the will for people to innovate and survive. Big SUV's can suck-up all the fuel on earth....so what? Let them. LET PEOPLE HAVE FREEDOM.....THIS IS ALL I AM SAYING. We don't want the government interfering with our rights anymore than they already are. We don't want America turned into a Nazi Germany type country. Let the free marketplace work things out. Let people have freedom.

That's my 2 and a half cents. :)

Derwin

MM89.....I guess we just have to agree to disagree on these things. But that's O.K.! Having these kind of debates is what a public forum is all about. I enjoy reading other people's opinion. Heck, sometimes it causes me to even change my own opinion.....but this is rare! ;)

[Baja_Traveler]

Hmm... By the same logic we should also ban people living in the desert or the south because they use too much energy by the air conditioning running. And of course those living in the north should not be allowed to heat. If you want to live in any of those areas you should be made to live underground to save valuable resources. =D

[Timon]

I'm paying $2.20/GGe for my CiviC GX which is why I'd love to see the V1 have a natural gas option. FYI, in Utah they pay $0.64/GGE.

[Miracleman89]

Well, I knew this was coming and it is apparent my point was completely over looked! The price of Oil Per barrel is what is currently causing the economic down turn! Yes, as Americans we have freedom, but those freedoms also come with responsibilities! I have the freedom to walk around my house naked if I want, but I don't have the freedom to do so with all of my curtains open! Why??? because I have a responsibility to my neighbors not to subject them to such horrifying images!:LOL: Plus it is against the law! We have a responsibility to our neighbors in this situation as well, because SUVs need for more fuel and so many people own them, the powers that be are forced to purchase more oil, thus increasing demand and overall increasing the price for everyone else! Look I am not saying don't drive them at all! They do serve a purpose, but that purpose doesn't include the daily run to your local Starbucks for a double macchiatto non fat latte with whip cream!

Also, in no way, shape or form did I make any suggestion that could possibly be confused with saying people shouldn't live in the desert or cold regions. Those that live in these climates do so because of family or up bringing or whatever, if everyone tried to live in the areas that are nice year round Hawaii would be standing room only! However, I did say we could take steps to reduce the impact of what energy we do use by buying those stupid light bulbs or adding solar panels on our roofs!

As for the Nascar comment, I understand that it has a super huge following. I knew that my view would be one that was not well received! I am not saying to close Nascar down! What I am saying is if they want to continue to waste precious resources for entertainment fine! Just make sure they are giving back to everyone else that pays for such waste! Invest money into alternative fuels or hybrid race cars or something like that! The mechanics working for Nascar are as innovative and intelligent about automobiles as NASA engineers are about rocket science! I mean, there is a lot of automobile innovations that have become part of the auto industry norm thanks in part to racing. So I am not saying Nascar needs to file bankruptcy and close their business, I am saying pool their resources and give back!

So in closing; Yes, we have freedoms, but in my opinion we also need to "man up", so to speak and take responsibility for those freedoms!

For the record these are just my opinions and I understand that not everyone will agree with them, nor do I expect anyone to follow what I say as a bible for living. I was simply expressing my own personal opinions and you have the right to disagree. I only ask that when you do, that you do not make outlandish comment and misconstrue what I say into some ignorant statement, making it appear as though I am some half wit that believes the world is flat or something like that! (example: people should not live in a desert or in cold regions) I would never make such a statement and to do so would be asinine! I respect your right to disagree or to agree with what I have said, so please respect me.

[Baja_Traveler]

Watch the blood pressure there MM89 - I'm seeing way too many exclamation points in your posts! ;)

I have found the back and forth a nice break from the boredom of work though...

TGIF !!

[Derwin]

I think this is not only FUN, but a very interesting conversation. MM89....if I offended you in any way, I am REALLY sorry. I sure did not mean to. I, also, was just expressing an opinion. I happen to (like you) believe my opinion very strongly. I think freedom is the most precious thing that we have as Americans. Yes, freedom does come with responsibility, but I don't think the responsibility mentioned is one that is correct. We don't have to give up our gas-hogs in my opinion. As I already stated, let people suck-up all the gas in the world....so what?

I think we get so caught up in our current life-style, that we begin to think that it has ALWAYS been this way. Obviously, it hasn't. If we had to go back and live our lives like we did 200 years ago....so what? People lived their lives and survived, loved, had children, got an education, and all the rest of it BEFORE we even knew what oil was. Be sure of this......oil WILL be depleted at some point in the future. Let's enjoy it NOW while we have it! This is not being irresponsible. This is simply enjoying the resources that we have at this point in time, because we know that they will surely be gone soon.

Then when the oil is gone, guess what? We will come up with other ways to fuel every aspect of our lives. That's why I think all of the alarmist points of view are pointless. A POSITIVE point of view is so much better. Let's take a positive point of view about finding alternatives and inventing new technologies, so when the oil is all gone, we won't have to revert back to life as it was 200 years ago. (which, actually, wasn't so very bad IMHO.)

O.K. I'm gonna stop now...I promise! =y:

Derwin

[cpaddock]

Baja, the underground house is not a bad idea! Check out Earth Ship .com...I built one
myself. And BTW, baseball bats are made from a RENEWABLE resource.
If the oil were turned off tomorrow, it would be a bad thing indeed! Practically every
aspect of modern civilization is dependant on access to cheap oil. The roads we drive on.
The equipment to maintain them. The tires we drive on. The firetrucks, ambulances,
UPS trucks, police cars, airplanes, container ships, nuclear subs. The pharmceuticals.
The food and its distribution. The clothes we wear. The very roofs over our heads.
No, we are locked in to a system from which there is no easy escape. We do not have 100 years to make a smooth, painless transition into a post-oil furture. Read the statistics. Do the research. We are rapidly approaching a tipping point due to the convergence of a variety of influences: climate change, Islamo fascism, over population, declining oil production, unchecked immigration, impotent government, environmental degradation, drug cartels, aids. It is my opinion that discussions such as this are a first step toward understanding. And that is a prerequisite to effective action.
Over....

[cpaddock]

Is the dead canary an alarmist?

[Derwin]

If the oil were turned off tomorrow, it would be a bad thing indeed! Practically every aspect of modern civilization is dependant on access to cheap oil. The roads we drive on. The equipment to maintain them. The tires we drive on. The firetrucks, ambulances, UPS trucks, police cars, airplanes, container ships, nuclear subs. The pharmceuticals. The food and its distribution. The clothes we wear. The very roofs over our heads......

Well, I think people survived and lived very successful lives over the past several thousand years. We have a spoiled mentality in that we think we "need" all that is around us in this "advanced" age we live in. But I simply do not believe it is true. By the way, what happens when all of the oil is depleted? What then? On one hand you state that we must "conserve" our resources by eliminating SUV's and other things, and on the other hand you say (which is true) that the resources will be depleted anyway! Well, I am at a loss as to see what the difference is if the oil dried up next month, or if it dried up 10 years from now. The fact remains that we must come up with ALTERNATIVES to oil, right? So, all I am saying is that we should not be "alarmist" about it, but instead be POSITIVE about coming up with alternatives and new technology to take the place of what is surely depleting. Doesn't that sound rational to you? If not, why?

Derwin

[cpaddock]

I guess the difference is that it took thousands of years for humanity to emerge from the dark ages and to form some kind of civilization based on the rule of law. Even then, say 300 years ago, life was exceedingly, dreadfully hard unless you were in the aristocracy. Notions of the romantic, pre-industrial past and the "noble savage" are way over rated. Prior to the beginning of oil use, the earth's population was appoximately
one billion people. In two hundred years we have reached 6 billion, with a doubling taking place in the last 40. Oil provided the means for this to happen. As the oil goes away there will be a die-off of biblical proportions. Now, OF COURSE we have to try to develop
alternatives, both technological and social. What is distressing is the fact that the average American jumps in their car eleven times a day to run "errands" (read: consumerism). My brother in law works for Honda and is astounded to see people trading in their 3 year old cars with 150,000 miles on them. When asked how is this possible, one lady's response was, "I have three kids!" This relates directly to the cancer of suburban sprawl and its destructive effects on so many aspects of our society. Have you seen that ad by Cadilac where the dude just loves the car so much he says, "man, if this thing had a bathroom I'd live in it." (It may well become someone's home in the near future, but won't be tooling merrily down the highway.)
I'm not nearly finished, but have to get to work....
Alooooooooha!

[Derwin]

I guess the difference is that it took thousands of years for humanity to emerge from the dark ages and to form some kind of civilization based on the rule of law. Even then, say 300 years ago, life was exceedingly, dreadfully hard unless you were in the aristocracy. Notions of the romantic, pre-industrial past and the "noble savage" are way over rated. Prior to the beginning of oil use, the earth's population was appoximately one billion people. In two hundred years we have reached 6 billion, with a doubling taking place in the last 40. Oil provided the means for this to happen. As the oil goes away there will be a die-off of biblical proportions.


I certainly don't think that life was "a bowl of cherries" or "romantic" thousands or even hundreds of years ago. I simply stated that people lived and loved and survived. If what you say is true..."As the oil goes away there will be a die-off of biblical proportions", than I guess we are destined to see this since OIL WILL SURELY GO AWAY. It is a depleting resource, right? So, no matter how much we drive around in our little cars that get great gas mileage, the oil will be gone, and, according to your assessment, we are all doomed.

Oil will be gone no matter how much we attempt to conserve it. And we will not all die-off in biblical proportions. C'mon, now. Let's be serious. Let's focus on new tech, alternatives to oil (since it will be gone soon no matter WHAT we do), and try to make a bright future for ourselves and those that come after us.

Making criminals out of those that drive SUV's is not the answer, and does not solve any problems.

Again, just my opinion.....based on logical thought! ;)

Derwin

[Derwin]

Before anybody has a heart-attack......I went and deleted all of MY posts to this thread. I just thought that what I said was not appropriate, and that it may alienate people. I sure don't want to do that! I would NEVER delete anybodys post except MINE, so you never have to worry about that! I hope you can all understand. Please continue this discussion. I think it is most interesting.

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

Derwin put them back! there was nothing wrong with them! They belong here just as much as any other! It is through Debating like this that gives people a chance to make choices that are better for them! Heck if debates weren't good then why do we have them for presidential candidates? I mean some people may choose my view, others my choose your view. There is nothing wrong with that! People can disagree and still get along, heck you and I have debated politics and religion and we have become pretty good pals over the past 6-8 months. Put them back we need you to participate!

[Derwin]

Derwin put them back! there was nothing wrong with them! They belong here just as much as any other!

Brian,

Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate them. But I have to remember my position in this forum. I can't just spout-off my beliefs in a debate, without it possibly offending other members. I am the "admin" of this forum, and people may take my comments the wrong way, and then decide not to join the club, or even leave the club. I want to avoid this at all costs. I want an open discussion amongst members, but I think I should keep MY participation in these heated debates to a minimum for the sake of the club. Sorry I just figured this out AFTER I posted what I did! :o

Anyway, keep the debate going. It is very interesting.

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

I don't know if I completely agree with your assessment Cpaddock. I believe that the reason population has doubled is in part to maybe the back seat of a car(joking) but I believe that it is mostly due to advancing our knowledge of human anatomy and learning more about medicine in the last 40 years then was discovered in all the years past! Now yes I am sure that the oil has helped like providing us with power to use the technology we have, but to think that a die-off of biblical proportions will occur because of no oil, IMHO would be pushing it! I do believe the end result will be us becoming what we referred to as third world nation but I don't see a big Die off!

[Miracleman89]

Derwin, I am a deputy Administrator! Without an alternate view from the leadership I shouldn't continue. We both represent opposites sides of this argument, yet we are both administrators. If people can see, that we do not allow our own personal opinions to influence how we run this site then maybe they will be more interested and maybe those that have sat on the fence and watched will feel more comfortable with getting involved!

Just MHO I could be wrong!

[Derwin]

Derwin, I am a deputy Administrator! Without an alternate view from the leadership I shouldn't continue. We both represent opposites sides of this argument, yet we are both administrators.

Hmmm. I didn't think about that. I guess your correct! I should never have taken my posts down. O.K. I'll put my posts back up so people can see both sides.

See......this is why it's good to have input from many people.

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

Thank you, see it is all about perception!

[Baja_Traveler]

I totally agree with you here...

How goes the saying? "The Good Old Days are NOW"??

We started this country out on a horse and buggy, we'll probably end up back there at some future date...


I don't know if I completely agree with your assessment Cpaddock. I believe that the reason population has doubled is in part to maybe the back seat of a car(joking) but I believe that it is mostly due to advancing our knowledge of human anatomy and learning more about medicine in the last 40 years then was discovered in all the years past! Now yes I am sure that the oil has helped like providing us with power to use the technology we have, but to think that a die-off of biblical proportions will occur because of no oil, IMHO would be pushing it! I do believe the end result will be us becoming what we referred to as third world nation but I don't see a big Die off!

[Luigi78]

Derwin, MM89...

posts == good.

I think we all agree that new energy is needed, that's why most of us visit this forum.

To me, a key point of conservation is to BUY TIME. The longer we can make our limited oil last, then the longer we have to figure out how to get by without it.
I suppose a counter argument is that the sooner oil ran out, then the sooner we would get off our a_ _es and figure out a solution...

[RAN]

Derwin, I'm glad you put your posts back up. I for one can stand anything but political correctness. Good, honest debate means saying what's on your mind and in your heart, and not worrying about what the "voters" might think. As Swordmaster of this forum, I felt I had to point that out ;-)

We have to break the chains of greed and stupidity and move into a new era. Our great grandchildren will never understand how we breathed such polluted air for all of our lives, nor should they. If we'd had any sense, the air would already be starting to clear up. Here in Phoenix, there are days when you can barely see the mountains surrounding the valley we live in through a haze of pollution brought on largely by millions of tailpipes spewing noxious exhaust fumes into the same air we have to breathe. We wouldn't think of peeing in our swimming pools, yet we think it's normal to poison the air we have to have to survive. Turn your car's engine on, and go bend down and breathe the exhaust for 5 minutes and see how you feel.

It isn't about whether some of us can still afford gas for our SUV's; it's about deciding that we've had enough of poisoning ourselves in order to make oil companies and automakers rich. It's about the dog wagging the tail for once, instead of the other way around. It's about taking some responsibility and making some compromises in the beginning to drive cars that won't kill us slowly every time we turn them on. I would venture to say that, in 10 years of producing electric cars, the technology will improve to the point where there will be few compromises necessary.

High gasoline prices have actually got the Enemy talking about producing clean cars... the time to hit the home run ball is NOW before they change their minds.

[rogwild]

Well some innovators are already working on this; and coming up with products:

http://tinyurl.com/yws7h4

The magazine article also states (on page 105, PS Dec 2007) that, "--and it produces zero emissions and 18 times the energy it consumes." I'm sure that this depends upon the hydro-carbon contend of the material being 'recycled', but is very impressive.

[RAN]

Well some innovators are already working on this; and coming up with products:

Pringle's right. Certainly in any other decade but this one, he would've been whacked. But now oil companies actually might want his invention to extract shale oil. This "brave new world" is getting interesting!

While this concept appeals to my recycling side, I still want to see gas-powered vehicles gone ASAP. Maybe he could convert the materials into heating oil... and we can always use more natural gas... but the more excuses we come up with to keep using gas, the more years we'll have to put off changing our bad habits (and to endure the consequences).

"Hawk Hogan?" =D

[cpaddock]

Boy am I glad to see Derwin is back in the fray and other voices have chimed in as well.
I was just starting to have warm, fuzzy feelings for you Derwin and your withdrawl left me with an emptiness I couldn't explain. I don't really see this as a "heated debate" so much as folks just expressing their feelings about some very hot button issues. I guess we could debate about that!!....anyway, we are all adults here, enjoying a spirited conversation without ridicule or condesension, actually a rather rare thing on the internet these days. Now, I realize I may use strong or colorful language to get my point across but I certainly don't want to give the impression that I think I have all the answers. On the contrary, I feel it is in the asking of questions that an open mind is nurtured. So we move into this 21st century with a mix of both dread and optimism. It is indeed a brave new world, for which we have no real models or precidents. The American Indians as we found them were living a sustainable existense for the most part, and largely because they were nomadic, hunter-gatherers. Even the settled tribes
of the Northeast and West coast lived in harmony with their surroundings, recognizing that respect for Nature and all her gifts was the prerequisite for life. And they took this further and made decisions based on trying to project the effects of their actions seven generations into the future. This is taking the long view. So when you consider how much we depend on hydrocarbons for things besides transporting our butts and our stuff,
plastic for instance, and pharmaceuticals, it would behove us to conserve what little is left for our children's children's children to have a chance at some of the "modern" ammenities we have enjoyed. This attitude could be called "conscious living" and it is a narrow and difficult path, frought with uncertainties. The pain at the pump is not an abstract opinion, but trying to figure out where it is all leading is. We can, however, make educated guesses. We weren't born yesterday. We have plenty of examples of failed states and civilizations to learn from. So why does it seem we keep making the same mistakes over and over? We are truly stumbling into the future. We should know by now that all things, all thoughts and actions, all the plants, microbes, animals and yes, bipedal hominids, are interconnected. Inextricably. (Like it or not). Oh how I would love to be wrong about the mass die-off equation. But when you look at the numbers of species extinctions and the way it is accelerating it is SOBERING. Will the very technology that got us into this predicament in the first place be able to save us now?
As far as I can see, every technological fix has a down side. Unfortunately, Life doesn't come with instructions, not that many of us would read them if it did! :) There IS a global awakening occuring in the midst of all the turmoil and grief, greed and its antecedent, suffering. This small but growing minority of caring souls can change the world. It doen't have to end in anarchy. Fear and ignorance are our worst enemies.
recognizing that we all are in this together on "spaceship earth" is the key to our survival.
Over.....

[Mark Tomlinson]

Well some innovators are already working on this; and coming up with products:

http://tinyurl.com/yws7h4

The magazine article also states (on page 105, PS Dec 2007) that, "--and it produces zero emissions and 18 times the energy it consumes." I'm sure that this depends upon the hydro-carbon contend of the material being 'recycled', but is very impressive.

Frank Pringle and Hawk Hogan (giggle).

Hey! They're from my hometown. Rockford could use an economic boost; this could be it.

[Mark Tomlinson]

While this concept appeals to my recycling side, I still want to see gas-powered vehicles gone ASAP. Maybe he could convert the materials into heating oil... and we can always use more natural gas... but the more excuses we come up with to keep using gas, the more years we'll have to put off changing our bad habits (and to endure the consequences).
I agree. I think high-mileage and electric vehicles are inevitable now because the snowball has started rolling. But since we've become addicted to oil, we're going to continue to need it; plastics, pharmaceuticals, etc. What this does is create another source for oil from products that would otherwise be landfilled.

Will it bring the price of gas down? Perhaps, but that's not to point for me. Climate Change (whatever your feelings on the subject are), pollution, landfills, and all are just fall out of our tremendously wasteful society. Inventions like this extract wasted energy and allow us to use it.

Since hydrocarbons can be found in renewable sources - even after we get done using them for other purposes, such as an apple core or orange rind - then this could dramatically change the equation. Instead of energy that was sunlight millions of years ago, we'd be extracting energy that was sunlight six months ago.

The downside, and to your's and other's point, is that would continue to encourage waste.

[Derwin]

You know fella's......as a result of the conversation in this thread, you guys may just be softening my Conservative views on this subject matter. ;) I'm surely not convinced of the arguments being made just yet, but at least I have an open mind, and I am listening!

:)

Derwin

[cpaddock]

Natural gas production has passed its peak and is in serious decline. Conversion of the waste stream into usable fuels is great, but the stream itself comes from the oil-based
system. Catch 22.....

[RAN]

cpaddock, not really, not at this point, because we still need tires and plastic things, and they are still made with oil, so being able to extract the oil from used up items to make new ones is still a Good Thing. Kinda like regenerative braking. ;)

[Baja_Traveler]

I think that this microwave extraction technology could be an awesome way to tap into the 1.7 trillion barrels of oil locked up in the Alberta oil sands. I guess the stuff is so thick that it cannot be pumped out, but has to be mined. That would make Canada the second largest producer of oil behind the saudi's.

A mobile rig would also be awesome for oil spill cleanup like what happened up in SF Bay. Shovel polluted sand in one end, and get clean sand out the other - filling oil barrels in between.

[cpaddock]

Like Regen braking, this conversion process returns only a small fraction of the expended energy. I agree that every little bit helps. But keep in mind that the microwave takes electricity, and an oil-based industrial complex to manufacture it. The raw materials (feedstock) must be transported (truck or rail) to the conversion plant in mass quantities which exist due to our consumptive life style. Setting up shop next to a giant turkey processing facility minimizes the cost of transport, but the entire agribiz/gas and oil conglomeration is required to "farm" turkeys by the millions as is the current practice.
The natural gas decline does not bode well for the manufacturers of fertilizers, currently
going out of country for continued production. Call me "Debbie Downer" but remember the recent comments by the Aussie PM stating that cars are going to obsolete and people will be walking and riding bicycles soon. He may be right. And would it be such a bad thing to have walkable communities (which our suburbs are not) with clean air and green tech driving the economy? This vision of the future is very encouraging to me, but I'm afraid a severe wake-up call is going to required. If 9/11 didn't do it, ie:"more studies are needed", Nature may make the call for us.

[Baja_Traveler]

...And would it be such a bad thing to have walkable communities (which our suburbs are not) with clean air and green tech driving the economy?.

Well, that would put us right in line with most of Europe. My relatives in Germany either walk or ride bikes just about everywhere they need to go. Of course you have to consider that just the county of San Diego is 2/3 the size of the whole state of Schleswig Holstein. Where they have to go is alot shorter distance than us. But still, there is nothing preventing me from walking or riding a bike to my local grocery store just like them - except for lazyness and sloth (Isn't that one of the deadly sins? :eek:)

[Derwin]

Call me "Debbie Downer" but remember the recent comments by the Aussie PM stating that cars are going to obsolete and people will be walking and riding bicycles soon. He may be right. And would it be such a bad thing to have walkable communities (which our suburbs are not) with clean air and green tech driving the economy?

I think this is one of the points I was trying to make in response to all of the dramatic scenarious that some have posted. We may indeed need to go back to walking and moving around by some other means. (Though I truly don't think it will ever happen!) But, Would this be so very bad? If the ICE bacame obsolete next week, and we had no way to commute other than by bicycle, would the world end? No, for goodness sake! Would we have to alter our lifestyles and find new ways to survive? You bet! But life would go on.

Actually, before mass transit, and before we had electricity, people actually knew their neighbor! They actually sat on the porch after a hard day at work; popped open a couple bottles of beer, and talked with each other.....played cards......board games......horseshoes....whatever. We knew what was going on down the street because there was a sense of "community" that has mostly vanished in our modern world.

Nowadays, people drive home from work, click the garage door opener, pull the car inside, go sit in the lazy boy chair and watch t.v until they go to sleep! We sit in our air-conditioned houses, and don't even poke our heads outside for fear that a drop of sweat may appear on our weary brow! We stay locked-up in our modern fortresses, and we think we have it made, and life couldn't be any better.

Well, it is my opinion that our modern lifestyle has actually caused us to miss out on a great deal that day to day life can offer. I don't know. I can go on and on about this, but I won't bore you to death! I guess my only point in this is to say that I do not fear the loss of oil and what it brings into our lives. If it is going to happen, it will happen anyway, regardless what we do. Let's enjoy what we have, but if the day arrives that we no longer have "it", then I think we'll do just fine. And, actually, it may even be a bit better!

Derwin

[rogwild]

Like Regen braking, this conversion process returns only a small fraction of the expended energy.

I'm not too sure that your read the SAME article I posted. It stated; "--and it produces zero emissions and 18 times the energy it consumes." I'm sure that was from 'waste products' that had a high 'hydro-carbon' content, but it looks like a 1800% return on expended energy; a far cry from "returns only a small fraction of the expended energy."

[RAN]

Also, the main limit to capturing regen braking energy is the batteries; if ultracaps are added, virtually all of the energy from regen braking can be recovered and reused.

[cpaddock]

No argument gents, I was just refering to the energy required to get moving and/or up the hill in the first place, The energy required to build the vehicle, pave and service the roads, etc. And similarly the bigger picture of energy used to maintain the current status quo which would be needed to run a scale-able conversion system. Not doing any math here. Just an overview.
And Derwin, not boring at all! Your perception of modern cultural impoverishment is right on. I just don't think a transition period will be so painless. So much has been lost in the rush to moderism. Knowledge and attitudes which made living in harmony with nature possible. Yes, I believe we will survive. But it won't resemble the past when the dust settles, and it probably won't look anything like we have imagined either.

[Baja_Traveler]

There was another interview on XM radio with some interesting history. 10 years ago oil was around $10 a barrel, and the experts were saying then that if oil were to ever hit $100 a barrel it would trigger a global recession and countries would collapse. Of course we know that did not happen, and just the opposite many countries have been and will continue to be in a huge growth mode. What it has triggered is global capitolism at it's finest -with every country competing for the limited resources. Those that can't compete remain 3rd world, those that can either prosper, or cost of goods drives them to develop alternative sources of energy in order to keep up.

I think the United States, so used to cheap energy is the latter - and some day this alternative energy research will pay off big. I just hope the breakthrough comes within the next decade...

[luckylindy]

There is one form of relief from the rising fuel prices that works great! I found a product called Ethos - Fuel Remformulator.
I use it in my 97 Dodge truck. I used to average 16 mpg.... and with the Ethos I now get 19 - 20 mpg.

Ethos allows the fuel to burn more completely and saves gas.
It also reduces emmisions by 30 - 50% .

The company used to only sell to big corporations for their fleets but now offer to the public. I spend about $700 - $800 per month on fuel and will save over $2000 per year with Ethos. Check it out.... www.save50centspergallon.com (http://www.save50centspergallon.com)

Luckylindy

[Mark Tomlinson]

Lucylindy, as in Donald Lindell? It's good to see your interest in the V1 (Three V1s, red, white, and blue? Ha, good one) But I'd be careful about plugging your product. That's against the terms of service.

If you are not Donald Lindell, my apologies. You certainly look like him. But please refrain from anything that appears to be marketing.

[Derwin]

LuckyLindy,

I would just add that IF you have something that you would like to sell, then we have a FREE CLASSIFIEDS section where you can post things. We would rather this stuff be in one central location, rather than spread throughout various threads.

Hope this helps.

Derwin

[Mike kZ]

Ouch! Expensive stuff!

[Baja_Traveler]

Which is why it is not worth it - for a mile or two a gallon you save nothing, or even loose money in the end. I can increase lubricity and also squeeze another mile or two a gallon by simply adding cheap 2 stroke oil to my diesel. Same result for alot less.

There is a reason this (and a long list of other snakeoil products) is on the banned from discussion list on the TDi, SOCAPS, and Dieselsite boards. Nearly every single post about this stuff is from someone selling it...

[cpaddock]

Anyone hip to the fact that Market Futures Speculators buying oil is helping drive up the price....now $128 bbl? What am I missing here? Why does this seem obsenely unethical to me? A rise at the pump of one penny a day puts us over $7 gal by this time next year. "Teach me to trade stocks!" "How to cash in on the coming oil crisis!" Why is making a buck always justification for every sort of destructive scheme? A lot of us still make money the old fashioned way....we WORK for it! I mean, WTF is going on?!!!!
Maybe there is some truth to "Zeitgeist" the movie. Rent it. Pour youurself a stiff one and watch it. You may not like what you see, but forewarned is forearmed.

[waboom]

Heard this on NPR this morning...

Chicago has the highest average gas prices in the continental US, with prices well north of $4.
Everyone has to pay federal tax, and state tax, on their gas.
However, in Chicago, you also pay:
A city tax,
Sales tax of 10.5% :eek:
and in summer months, they are required to use reformulated gas, which adds 10 cents per gallon to the cost.

Derwin, I feel for you buddy.
Cpaddock, I feel for you more.

[Derwin]

Heard this on NPR this morning...

Chicago has the highest average gas prices in the continental US, with prices well north of $4. Derwin, I feel for you buddy.

Thanks! Gas even in the suburbs is hovering around $4 a gallon, and it is killing us! I just bought a little 150cc scooter, and I've been riding that around my little town (Elwood), where gas is $3.95 a gallon. The scooter get's me around, and it is saving a lot on my gas bill. The pool business that we run is another story. We have deisel trucks, and the price for this gas is hovering around $5 a gallon. It is mere torture when you are plunking down a couple Ben Franklins just to fill-up your gas tank!

Hopefully in August my Spyder SE5 will be arriving, and I'll be going everywhere on that. I think it gets around 35 or 40mpg, and that's better than any vehicle that I have right now. Except for the scooter, but you can't really take that thing on highways, unless you want to die! :eek:

Derwin

[Baja_Traveler]

Yep - Filled up the truck this morning @ $4.72 a gallon for diesel here in San Diego - and thats shopping around for the best station. The station near my house was $4.99 yesterday, and I'll bet it'll be over $5 by the weekend. I'm really researching a daily driver now - something I can easily unload in a few years when the VV is ready.

[Hardtime11]

If you check out most of your used car lots nowadays they have a lot of SUVs and Pickup Trucks on their lots. They are just not selling like they used to. It is a shame that we go and help out countries and they stick it to us making us up our prices as a chain reaction to their fictitiously jacking up the oil prices.

[cpaddock]

We are in the midst of an inflationary spiral which is being caused by a variety of influences, not the least of which is reduced production in the face of increasing demand, worldwide. The stuff is getting harder to find in meaningful quantities, and more expensive to extract due to deeper wells and more remote and politically volital locations.
I just did some very rough math and came up with the following projections:
crude @$130 per 55 gal = $2.36 gal. Gas @$4.25 gal is approx. 180% more per gal.
With crude projected to reach $150 per barrrel "soon", we'll be paying $4.90-$5.00+
"soon". No question about it. I'm guessing most if not all the members of this club are
hip to the problem and looking for alternatives, so no sense preaching to the choir.
Change your light bulbs. Change your driving habits. Change the laws and those who
write them.
It all makes 2010 seem a long way off. Must act now. Soon we'll be choosing between food or fuel. Oh yeah, the price of food is going up as oil goes up because of their co-dependent relationship.
Misery loves company, Eh?
Curves Ahead!

[Baja_Traveler]

Interesting article published this week on why gas - and especially diesel - is costing so much. Looks like were are going to be in for a rough ride by the end of the year - My $8/gal prediction may come sooner than I thought...

http://www.energybulletin.net/44435.html

[MVRacing]

Baja,
Thanks for posting that. Interesting reading ... was wondering why diesel was going up so much more.

[Derwin]

I HEREBY DECLARE A NATIONAL EMERGENCY!

My most recent shipment just came in from overseas, and I had to go pick it up today. I will say that we can thank our president for protecting us, since my cargo was held-up this week so that the "Dept. of Homeland Security" could inspect it. I happened to be one of the "lucky" ones that got pulled for inspection! :mad:

Anyway, I went to pick up the shipment, and then stopped to get some gas. I PAID $4.29 A GALLON.......and that was the CHEAP gas! We also just had to fill up the diesel Dodge truck we use for the swimming pool business, and it was over $5 a gallon and over $300 to fill it up! THIS IS INSANITY!


We need to get this vehicle to market as soon as possible. We need to create and develop more alternative means of transportation......and I'm talking about NOW! $4.29.99 is simply way too much for a gallon of gas, and the sad thing is.......it will only get higher. We need a REVOLUTION in the transportation industry with start-ups like VV leading the way.

Derwin

[cpaddock]

Waboom, Derwin, et.al. The truth is, here in Hawaii we may pay the most in the nation for gas and electricity, but there ARE compensations. For instance, we don't have to buy heating oil, snow tires, and parkas. It is I who feel for y'all. How much will it cost you to keep warm this winter? What about those less fortunate who are just scraping by or who just lost their homes in the great re-fi debacle? We need a revolution alright. We need effective, enlightened, compassionate leadership. We need someone who can inspire us with something other than revulsion and disgust. Linda Lingle, Hawaii's Governor, is hooking up with Project Better Place to start the process of converting this state to a renewable energies, electric vehicle dominant system. It's about f***ing time! We might want to think about growing something other than sugar cane and pineapples, something which is not so entirely dependant on huge applications of petrol derivitives. The problems are staring us in the face and draining our wallets. The solutions will require an entirely new set of attitudes and yes, lifestyles, if we are to have any kind of a future for our children's children. We will either become a cooperative
society or a fragmented, stagflated, each-man-for-himself, law-of-the-jungle wilderness.
As this energy crises deepens it will become increasingly harder to plan for the future
because of the focus on meeting immediate survival needs. So we ought to be thinking this through now while we still have the opportunity and the infrastructure.
May I suggest you get your hands ona copy of James Kuinstler's "The Long Emergency",
READ IT! Understanding how we got where we are today is the first step in finding our way out of this mess.
Alooooooooha!
Curves Ahead!

[RAN]

The biggest problem with American society is that it's very short-sighted. We focus on short-term profits/benefits at the expense of long-term thinking and planning. Gas prices have been rising for several years now, but most of us never bothered to look for homes nearer to work (or for work nearer to where we live), and it took gas breaking thru $3.50/gal to even *start* to impact SUV and pickup truck sales.

The writing's been on the wall all the time... maybe now some people will take a minute out of their busy days to read it and stop expending all their time swimming against the tide.

Still, don't expect much from Washington. That place needs a serious colon cleansing. Maybe unfolding circumstances will help *that* along too, if we're lucky.

[nvrblu]

... but most of us never bothered to look for homes nearer to work (or for work nearer to where we live)...

I have an interview next week for a job much, much farther from home... about 2000 miles. I ran across VV while looking for hybrid alternatives because I was looking at a possible 70 mile r/t commute. That was over 6 months ago... still looking for a job after being laid off last August.

I'm hoping I get this job because I'll be able to telecommute. I'll just have to fly to Maui every month or two for face-to-face time with co-workers =D

[RAN]

I'm hoping I get this job because I'll be able to telecommute. I'll just have to fly to Maui every month or two for face-to-face time with co-workers =D

A rough job... but.... sumbuddy's gotta do it ;)!

Best of luck!

[evCommuter]

Date: Monday, February 18, 2008 0:02
Subject: Data Mining to Promote Mutual Relocation for Shorter Commutes to Reduce Energy Costs
To: comments@whitehouse.gov
Cc: irs.gov.website.helpdesk@speedymail.com,dianerug@m sn.com
Dear Mr. President George W. Bush and Advisors,

MY IDEA: Data Mining Services to Promote Mutual Relocation for Shorter Commutes to Reduce Energy Costs.

SCENARIO: Many people want to relocate their residence to a location closer to their employment for a shorter commute to personally save money, time, and reduce risks.

SOLUTION: Another person with the same interest but with corresponding opposite commute locations would be a match for a successful MUTUAL RELOCATION TRANSACTION to each of them. Many people would be interested in what POTENTIAL matches exists. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) already has addresses of residence and employment [http://www.irs.gov/govt/liaisons/article/0,,id=133087,00.html (http://www.irs.gov/govt/liaisons/article/0,,id=133087,00.html)]. A company could develop database queries (upon request) to match properties of corresponding opposite commute locations for a potential mutual relocation transaction. With this knowledge people would be empowered to decide to sell their property and relocate. This service could revolutionize the way – we find the “where” we live and work.

BENEFACTORS: The local, state and federal government would have interest in reducing commute distances for the savings of fuel use, reduced traffic congestion [1], reduced air and noise pollution, less risk of accidents, reduced health care from less stress. The real estate industry would benefit because the match would hold economic value, thus extra monetary value of the properties (price). Faster turnovers could support competitive brokers fees. The benefits could increase worker productivity and thus, effectively improve the GDP.

PROBLEM: Many people use realtors or www.realtors.com to search the real estate market. But this may not be the best method. The real estate listings are prospects ready to move and are probably at a later stage than people just looking. Many people want to find another place before they sell their home, but they have to sell their house first to afford the next one. Homes stay on the market a longer time which affect property values. Either, people find property but may have to sell their home “motivated” and sacrifice monetary value (selling price), or they sell their home first before they find property so they may have to rent and lose money with that cost, the extra moving, and storage costs. Or the relocation just does not happen.

Respectfully,

CC: Internal Revenue Service, Commissioner, Chief of Staff [irs.gov.website.helpdesk@speedymail.com]
National Association of Realtors, Diane Ruggiero, Chair and Board of Directors Representative, [dianerug@msn.com]

Footnote: [1] Biggest pains in the lanes – Where are San Diego County's worst backups? By Steve Schmidt, UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER, The San Diego Union-Tribune Newspaper, February 17, 2008 [http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080217-9999-1n17traffic1.html (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080217-9999-1n17traffic1.html)]
:LOL: