HHO

[rogwild]

Derwin; perhaps a 'Myths, Hoaxes, Conspiracies, and Fairy Tales' thread would appropriate.
Never heard of 'Kill the Water Man', but a lot on 'Brown's Gas' and the guy in the Tampa area that welds and supplements a car with (? H H O ?) gas.

[MikeB]

He was the guy that said he created a system to run an internal combustion engine on WATER! He even demonstrated it by running his dune buggy entirely on his water-only system. He claimed people in the industry were out to kill him! I have a question for ANYBODY that knows about this......Was this guy for real? Maybe I should start another forum just for this subject, but I will let you all decide if it is worthy enough.

Water is a great fuel. If you add 10kW of electricity, you can make Hydrogen, which you can then convert back to about 9kW of energy to propel your vehicle.

If anyone claims that they can do better than that, they are either pushing efficiency very hard, or flat out lying.

[Timon]

One way to make Hydrogen, and Oxygen as well, is via electrolysis but the issue is power.

If you build a special nuclear power plant which is only use to create power for the electrolysis process you can make both gases at a fairly low cost.

The problem is where to put it. Simple, San Clemente island. You have all the water you need and it's a safe location since the Navy runs/guards the island.

The idea that it's hard to get rid of the spent fuel is a bunch of BS. It's been proven that you can reprocess the fuel on site, ending up with a safe by product, than putting it under ground.

It's the only fuel that comes from the earth and can safely go back to the earth when your done.

IMHO

[Mark Tomlinson]

Derwin; perhaps a 'Myths, Hoaxes, Conspiracies, and Fairy Tales' thread would appropriate.
Never heard of 'Kill the Water Man', but a lot on 'Brown's Gas' and the guy in the Tampa area that welds and supplements a car with (? H H O ?) gas.

The guy in Tampa is affiliated with MagnaGas (http://www.magnegas.com/), which is slowly turning into a real product. I trust my mechanical engineer brother, Mike, on things like this - the thermal-dynamic whatchamahoosit cycle stuff is his specialty. This and the Texas A&M mixed alcohol process are the only two alternative fuel suggestions that I've heard him mention are practical. (Perhaps biodiesel from algae if they can get past the extraction issues).

So why hasn't it taken off if it's so great? The physicist behind it, Dr. Ruggero Maria Santilli, is an eccentric who's busy suing people and alienating potential customers. Last year they reorganized the company to get him out of the limelight. The press release said, flat out, that he is his own worst enemy.

Isn't there an alternative fuels forum we can take this up in?

[Derwin]

Well, I did a little research on this Water Fueled car.

I watched the videos that this guy made. He sounds so very sincere, and it is hard to believe he was a scam artist. His theory seems to make since, but then again, I am a moron when it comes to this! :confused:

Take a look at this guy and his idea. I think it is very interesting. But is this a hoax, or did this guy really have something that would change the world?

Derwin

By the way, we should really put up another forum to discuss this matter, and other alternative fuels. I think it would help to organize everything. AZ, if you are reading this, discuss this with the other admins. Thanks.

[AZEqualizer]

You want a different topic other than:

Advanced Fuels & Other means of Power (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
Everything relating to bio-diesel, ethanol, hydrogen, and electricity.

I suppose we could have a Alternative Fuels & Rumored Energy Technology forum.

You all could start a separate thread under the Advanced Fuels forum.

We are easy either way.:cool:

[Mark Tomlinson]

You want a different topic other than:

Advanced Fuels & Other means of Power (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
Everything relating to bio-diesel, ethanol, hydrogen, and electricity.

I suppose we could have a Alternative Fuels & Rumored Energy Technology forum.

You all could start a separate thread under the Advanced Fuels forum.

We are easy either way.:cool:

Maybe just Advanced or Alternative Energy.

[AZEqualizer]

Well when I went to waterfuelcell.org the site attempted to give me a virus that my antivirus put a stop too... so I won't be looking at their site but I will try to do some other research on it -Derwin

The Virus that tried to download from the site was a Trojan identified as DoS.JS.Dframe.n

[AZEqualizer]

HHO a chemists view. (http://anti-rant.blogspot.com/2006/05/simple-truth-about-hho-and-water.html)
I'm going with this guy... From what I can see it is too much BS not enough reality. I'm marking it down as 'Scam' :p

Until they can come up with Cold Fusion I will put more trust in a regular H2 Fuel cell

[Hardtime11]

"Cold Fusion", would never be allowed! It would spark off a bunch of things and people disappearing if you know what I mean. To many people would lose money despite the people that would benefit from it. You know the "Conspiracy Theory" reborn.

[Lumberjack]

Well lets see.

Browns gas. Its hydrogen and oxygen gas mixed together. It can power a car however it is very dangerous to store. Using it in small quantities created strictly with surplus electricity can boost mileage but anything else is usually a net loss.

Hydrogen. If you think of hydrogen as a storage medium then it can make sense in some applications such as solar powered electrolysis but is not usefull for large scale application due to poor efficiency and storage requirements.

Biodiesel. Cutting down rain forests and using up farmland are two major problems with the fuel. I have seen a process that converts waste into a bio fuel with decent efficency but I dont regard this as more then a very temporary type of solution.

It is extremely hard to replace oil as it packs far more energy then any known alternative.

[AZEqualizer]

Since oil came from solar energy converted into shall we say Plant energy storage - it is possible to short cut it ... It has to be done in such a way that it does less environmental harm than good.
One Possibility is waste conversion the other is coal conversion, and the third is for a bacteria or algae as the source material.

[Miracleman89]

Speaking of conspiracy theories, "Water as fuel" anybody seen Chain Reaction! I mean I don't want to see half of the south side of chicago blown up and I am sure that Derwin and Mark Tomlinson would agree with me on that!;)

[WattGas?]

Lumberjack's got it right:


It is extremely hard to replace oil as it packs far more energy then any known alternative.There are no giant ready-made pools of underground Hydrogen that we can tap. It has to be manufactured, therefore it is not an energy source but rather a battery, and a very inefficient and dangerous one at that. Brush up on the Laws of Thermodynamics and you'll see it's a losing proposition.

Biofuels hold more promise because they capture "free" energy from the Sun, but despite this, the energy required for "refining" Biofuels makes it technically difficult to archive an net energy profit.

Until batteries have energy storage capacity that is roughly another order of magnitude denser, plug-in hybrids are the most practical alternative. Ultimately, Electricity will be the only fuel.

But this still won't change the fact that our lifestyle and economy will have to adapt to driving a lot less and a lot smarter.

[RAN]

Not only do we need batteries that can allow a decent range, but recharging times have to come way down. The Tesla has the range.... but if memory serves, even with the special 220volt charging station, it takes 3.5 hours to recharge it, and if all you have is a 110volt line, it takes something like over 30 hours to charge! When we have electric cars that can perform like the Tesla and V-1, have a range of 200+ miles and can charge in 15 minutes or even less, the electric car will have arrived. Until then, the series hybrid makes the most sense.
The biggest problem with cars today is they're all too heavy, and any vehicle like the V-1 and the Aptera are going to have to suffer with the "what happens when an Escalade runs over it?" stigma. My standard response is.... what happens when an 18 wheeler runs over an Escalade? :D

[Mark Tomlinson]

Ran, the Tesla takes eight hours to fully recharge on 110. Two points on that though; First, because of the nature of the vehicle (a sports car that many owners will be commuting in), it will be rare that anyone will fully discharge the car before plugging it back in. So regardless of whether your using the Tesla 220 charger or just a wall outlet, the realistic recharge time will be much shorter.

Second, Martin Eberhard likes to ask, "How long does it take your cell phone to recharge"? Most people have to guess because they plug it in at night when their not using it. Same with an electric car. Even if you drive 200 miles a day, the vehicle should be completely charged the next day. (Obviously - but often lost in the discussion - we are talking about a sports car and not a family sedan.)

The big downside with battery electric vehicles is battery replacement. Even the Tesla, with a complex battery management system, only promises full EPA rated mileage up to 100,000 miles. Past that point, range begins to drop and many owners will begin to think about having the batteries replaced. Right now, that could cost $20,000. And trade-in is lost because a dealer will have to replace the batteries anyway. Tesla openly admits they are hoping for a technology break-through within the next five years to minimize the cost and extend the range and recycles.

But we digress. Back to HHO anyone?

[RAN]

Mark, sure, the Tesla's fine for daily commuting, but what good is a car I can't even drive to Vegas (about 285 miles away)??

And now back to our regularly scheduled HHO discussion :)

[Billy]

So the Tesla gets 100,000 on the battery pack. The battery costs $20k. That's $.20/mile. My car gets 24MPG now, and ~20 gallon tank. So 480 miles/tank in theory. Just say the ICE in my car lasts 100k miles, in reality it has over 200k miles, but that's not the point. So 100k miles, and the engine is say $2000. So the engine costs $.02 /mile. Now for the other side of the figures.

Say the Tesla takes $3.00 for electricity to charge it, I don't know the exact numbers, this is just a guideline. You can go 200 miles on a charge, so it's .015cents to run, over 100k miles is $1500 in electricity. Now as opposed to my car, gas here is ~$2.90/gallon. Over the course of 100k miles, it'll take 4166.6666667 Gallons:Beer: (<---- my car), but we'll say 4167. 4167 gallons is $12084.30. I'm keeping these numbers consertive, as I know California is MUCH higher. In reality, it's still cheaper running an ICE over batteries, I know the batteries price tag has a lot to do with it.

In short, let me see if I can figure this out correctly.
Electric car costs .015 cents a mile, or
Gas ICE costs ~.12/mile.
I think these numbers are pretty close. It's kind of weird, but gas is cheaper than electric, where I live anyway. Time and technolgy will take it's toll, and I hope someday soon these numbers will be reversed. =y: I forgot maintance costs.

Air filters: ~$10 every 10k, so $100
Oil filters: ~$4 every 3000k so 34*$4= $136
Average car goes through 2 water pumps in 100k, and mine is $150/each so 300
coolant changer every 30k miles, $9-10/gallon, we'll use $10, and 2.5 gallons each. $82.50
Engine oil, such as conventional 5W30, $2/qt. 5qts per change. 600qts is $1200.
All of a sudden, things took a toll.. Total of $13,766.50 OK then, a new figure per mile.

So the new total is $.137/mile and is STILL cheaper, but not by much. I think if the battery was $15k, it would be very good.

[Miracleman89]

Billy I like your comments they make sence but if the battery is 15k I won't buy it because when the battery fails I won't be able to afford to just run out and get another! All the stuff you mentioned is true but those cost are spread out and easier to digest then 15k all in one lump sum for a battery! I think at that point I would be SOL, so to speak!

[Billy]

Another problem that we face is depreciation. Sure the thing is $20k, but the battery is how much? After 100k miles, what is it going to be worth? It's a shame we can't get these batteries down, like over-night soon enough?:mad:

[Billy]

[quote=WattGas?;773]Lumberjack's got it right:

There are no giant ready-made pools of underground Hydrogen that we can tap.

Ever heard of Natural Gas? It just happens to be 4 parts Hydrogen, and 1 part Carbon. The other problems using ANY living thing on earth, it's all Carbon based, so you'll get Carbon Dioxide. There is a process, I can't remember what it's name is off hand, and it will split the Carbon from Hydrogen.

I know, it's a bum deal, in reality, H2 is a good fuel, but too bad it's so hard to get it, the clean way. :( Worse yet, all the auto companies are introducing all of these new H2 powered cars, we ought to ask them how they're getting the H2. If it is electrolisys, that's a waste, and more polluting than a 90 year old diesel that needs rebuilt.:( Somebody somewhere will figure it out, or at least I hope.;)

[Lumberjack]

Cracking methane produces CO2. Electrolysis produces only hydrogen and oxygen.

[Billy]

It's a shame the government and auto manufacturers are so corrupt, we have to do things our self.

[Timon]

And there is no shortage of sea water just the power to process it.

I still think nukes are the answer until you can build a beg enough solar farm to power a H2 plant. You don't have a waste issue if you process the spent fuel on site and it fact the reprocesses fuel can go back into the reactor.

[Billy]

Oh, heavens no Timon, we can't do that, it would be far too easy <--- that's what out government thinks. =n: We could process our spent rods just like France, but we don't, and we have to consume way more oil, just to make a name for our self. I don't neccesarly think Nuclear is the way, but there is better ways than oil. Hydrogen has a big chance, and most of us live around water. When they can figure out a way to crack water efficiently, then we can make a faster transition away from oil.

The argument is going to be somebody who'll disagree. Wind is a good source of energy, along with solar, and hydro-electric. Nuclear is OK if we can keep the terrorists away. Of everything I just mentioned, whoever disagrees with me, I want to see you make a reliable, eco-friendly energy source. I do think the government would tax us to death for using H2, just because they are known for that, and they have to get their fuel tax to waste money on pointless wars.=y:

[cpaddock]

Go to www.evworld.com for a story titled "converted suzuki van gets 72 MPG on
gaseous hydrogen". Gas is $12/gal in the Carib! Necessity IS the mother of invention.

[tugboatwilly]

100 mpg will go a long way to cutting the OPECK'ers off at the pocketbook. If the USA stopped using Arab oil and the Chinees took over using it, do you think they might treat the terrorist sponsoring nations different when the terrorists start bombing Peking?
Besides it is a moot point as the OIL/WARBUCKS people own congress and you are absolutly right they will bury any chance at a fair price with taxation. $ 18,000 is not going to happen at twice the price.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Well, this is unexpected. My brother, whom (as I mentioned before) I trust in such matters, has decided to spring for a $75 HHO generator. He's done some research and decided it's worth a shot.

His reasoning centers around the idea that you can't run a car on water. But adding hydrogen to the air intake causes the gas to burn more completely, allowing it to run lean. He also reasons that the energy created by the alternator isn't used completely, so HHO can be created with little drain on the system. He's looking at a design that separates the oxygen off so that the O2 sensor isn't tripped up.

He and I theorized on reasons Big Auto hasn't done this, and (since we both work or worked for large corporations) we determined it's industry tunnel vision.

I should also mention that the only reason he's doing this is because it's only $75 and a weekend's work. He can always pull it out. I'll let you know how it goes.

[MVRacing]

Mark,
I for one will be eagerly waiting your updates. Thanks for sharing.

[rogwild]

I'd also be interested in the results. Hope his car is not still under warranty,...won't be for long.

[ydeardorff]

I have built these HHO units myself, efficiencey isnt the word to use, or term to think of here, but rather "will it extend the mileage of my cars current MPG rating, and at what cost"?
I have seen many of the YouTube videos too, and done months worth of homework on this. "This does work". Will it make your 1967 monte carlo get 50 mpg? No.
There is alot to know, and do, in making even a remotely functioning unit that provides a noticeable gas savings. Beleive me, Ive been playing with all sort of designs. But unlike many on the net, Im not just giving chance to the wind. I have done my research and talked to leading industry professionals, even professional hydrogen manufacturing plants, as well as more than a few people in lab coats all over the country.
Can you make water release hydrogen gas using metal electrodes in a baking soda and water? Yes you can, and it will pop and snap just like in the videos on you tube.
- But theres alot more to know than just that. You need to understand the chemical make up of the metals your using. Otherwise you could be facing VERY dangerous, and poisonous waste products.
You have to do your research, and alot of it to make a unit that will even begin to make a noticeable difference in mileage. I have done extensive research into Micro cavity electrodes, Nano metals, corrosion cell dynamics, electro-chemical potential of metals, and metallic alloys. Printed up countless reams of paper on every possibility.
Is this for the Average joe that can run to home depot with a credit card? No.
In fact if you are wanting to get the most out of your electrodes (which you have to replace often) you have to coat them in a sacrificial nano metal conductive covering that runs hundreds of dollars per electrode. I have even performed testing with noble metals such as gold and silver.
Many people refer to efficiency, well an internal combustion engine is a horribly innefficient tool, but we use it every day none the less. But through mechanical means it produces more than enough electrical energy to produce HHO gas in small quantities. 12VDC and less than 20amps on average are used. Thats just a little more than your average car stereo. You will not run your car on this thing by itself. But if carefully designed and made it will make a difference in mileage. But you need to know what your doing.
Storage, there is no storage with an "on demand" unit. there is such a small amount of gas, the danger is low (however not gone). The entire hydrogen generating system is under a constant vaccum from the engine, and is turned off the with the motor. But again hydrogen gas is not to be played with, nor taken lightly. Gasoline lights slower than hydrogen. In fact when gasoline is lighted in an open container you get a womph sound. Hydrogen will detonate like dynomite in the air with a resounding crack or boom. Its an instantanious explosion. The hydrogen gas can be seperated from the oxygen in the electrolyte by using a special membrane. Again, this is expensive. The fancier you get, the more efficient you get, the more expensive it becomes.

So in recap,
Yes you can make this happen.
Most of us dont have the skills or knowledge to play with this to make one efficient enough to be worth our time.
Dont buy ones used with Stainless steel! PERIOD!!! these release toxic metal wastes into the water called Hexavelant Chromates (sp?) (Erin Brokovich)
75% of the units sold on Ebay, or other sites are cool to look at, but dont work to the level people claim, or what youll expect.
These units will not drag your mileage down, due a drain on the electrical system no more than a car stereo would. LOL
However like it has been mentioned, these units are not in use in every car, due to one thing,...cost. To make a truly efficient unit you have to spend dollars, and many to make it work to the level people want, too much cost in my opinion. The science, and the units are sound, provided they produce enough volume per minute, without producing toxic waste.

There is really too much to go into on this subject. If you have an extensive background in the industrial arts, electronics, and chemistry you may want to play with this. But for the avg person, this isnt a good toy to play with.
The results, should you decide on this venture are alot of fun to see happen. It opens your eyes to other ideas on ways to make things work better or differently than we have been shown as consumers.