22 May Greentech Media Vv article [Archive]

rogwild

05-25-2008, 09:49 AM

ARTICLE = "The company hopes to complete a road-worthy prototype by March 2009 and to come out with production cars around 2010"

Seems like this says that the Beta has been 'moved forward' (read 'pushed back') three months (from 'ready by the end of this year'), and the slip for production from April 2009 to "around 2010" has been 'confirmed'. I wonder what "around 2010" really means, since April 2011 is just as close to Dec 2010 as Aug 2010 is.

Oh well, I'm still waiting for Ian's 'Coming soon Update' that was due out the "next DAY or so".........(now 23 hours short of a WEEK ago!)

RAN

05-25-2008, 10:40 AM

Ian's biggest problem is that he's publicity hungry. He seems to equate a certain amount of success to a certain number of articles he can get published. Meanwhile, every target date that actually has something to do with creating and testing some aspect of the real vehicle itself gets pushed back another 3 months. Bear in mind that when Ian first started talking to the media, the V-1 was supposed to be in production *now*. But as we see, the first *prototype* isn't even ready yet.

At this rate, based on what I've seen in the 8 or so months I've been following things, it probably *will* be 2011 before the V-1 is available outside of CA.... or maybe only *inside* by that time.

I'm waiting to see what EEStor can deliver, and I'm keeping an eye out on conversion houses like this new arrival here: http://www.ampmotorworks.com/index.html
I'm seriously thinking about getting an older Porsche Boxster and having it converted to EV. If EEStor comes through, it'll be capable of cross-country distances (with high-powered charging stations which will start popping up in more and more places along the interstates). If not, it'll still be a great local driver with a 125+ mile range.

Right now, with current prices, I could buy an older Boxster and have it converted for about $40K total. That's @ $10k less than a new one costs, and at $5/gal for gas, the more I drive it, the faster it pays for itself

What story will we be reading about VV a year or 2 from now? The story with hard numbers on models, prices and delivery dates? Or the story about how too many delays caused investors to shy away from 3rd-level funding, and VV can no longer continue?

CelticFlyer

05-25-2008, 10:48 AM

Hey thanks for the link to that article, MV. Again, we hear the "2010" production date mentioned. Every time I see that, I get a little disappointed. Yes, I will definitely purchase a V1, but I'm not going to hold off until '10 to buy a car! I'm going to get a VW Rabbit in the meanwhile. That should get me in the habit of driving a smaller vehicle by the time the V1 hits the streets. It's cheap, efficient, and small.

The other concern I have is that they mentioned the V1 is considered a motorcycle, and they considered that an advantage. I don't have a motorcycle license, nor have I ever ridden a motorcycle. Would it be wiser for me to get a motorcycle in the interim, learn to ride, then trade UP to a LARGER vehicle in the V1?

Curious alternatives lay before me...:confused:

rogwild

05-25-2008, 11:28 AM

CelticFlyer, taking a motorcycle safety course (got mine Sep '07), never hurts (except maybe your wallet and time), but you will gain valuable information and be much more aware of those 'crazy two-wheelers' that you share the roads with. It will provide you with the 'motorcycle endorsement' (if required) and might even help prevent an accident (better awareness of bikes), even if you are driving a 4-wheeler.

Personally, I'd stick with the 'Rabbit' idea for the added safety, comfort, and utility. Don't know how much of your '2-wheel experience' would translate to the V~1, except maybe the appreciation of the 'enclosed all-weather cabin'!

Derwin

05-25-2008, 11:33 AM

RAN,

I just went to that website, and it states that you need to convert a Saturn. Can you use that system on ANY vehicle? Either way......$25 grand is a lot of money just to by the conversion system!

You said that it would cost you around $40 grand for the vehicle and conversion. Heck, for that much money, you would be able to import a Carver and start flying the road ahead of all of us! I considered it myself, but I just did not think it was feasible. I'm not a rich man, and the cost was just prohibitive.

Derwin

rogwild

05-25-2008, 11:55 AM

kind of sad that they seem to be postponing the fully eletric one til later. that is the one i want. so i can get a solar charging system (i work midnights) and use only free power to drive.

You might want to check out the FTR forum for information (not sure about the accuracy of the 'experts' figures) on the state of current 'solar charging efficiency' and what would be required to fully recharge a V~1 solely by solar panels:

http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=52&page=6&replies=172#post-14994

RAN

05-25-2008, 12:36 PM

RAN,

I just went to that website, and it states that you need to convert a Saturn. Can you use that system on ANY vehicle? Either way......$25 grand is a lot of money just to by the conversion system!

I used that site as an example, because it looks like they've put together a viable EV package. There are other conversion houses that do or will convert Boxsters.

You said that it would cost you around $40 grand for the vehicle and conversion. Heck, for that much money, you would be able to import a Carver and start flying the road ahead of all of us! I considered it myself, but I just did not think it was feasible. I'm not a rich man, and the cost was just prohibitive.

Derwin

Derwin, 1st of all, a Carver would be closer to $50k or maybe more by the time you got through all the red tape and expense of importing one.

Second, I don't want a vehicle that burns gas. At all. I don't want anything that has an ICE in it. Look at it this way: if the hybrid V-1 can go 40 miles on batteries (I'll believe it when I see it), that would handle at least 95% of all my local driving. Which means at least 95% of the time, that ICE is sitting there, adding weight, with oil pooling at the bottom eating through the seals and gaskets. I'm probably carrying around a gallon of gas in the tank that's just sitting there for months too. I still have to worry about maintenance on the engine whether I use it or not. I still have to take it through emissions, probably, and if I take it on the road, I'm still polluting the air and I still have to buy gas. It still needs filters, oil changes, etc etc etc.

You're still thinking in old world terms about automobiles. If I had an EV that had a 125 mile range, it would more than take care of all of my local driving. If no other viable option exists for extended range, then I'll rent something when I want to take a road trip. I still have hope that EEStor has the home run ball in it's labs at this moment, and I'm still hopeful that metal-air fuel cells will step up to the plate if EEStor fails. As a last resort, an engine that can run on pure biodiesel (like the micro turbine that Velozzi is going to use). Either way, there will be alternatives to gas-burning ICEs. I wouldn't buy a gas-burning Carver even if the price was $25k.

And while a Boxster doesn't tilt, driving around in one doesn't suck either. =D

Derwin

05-25-2008, 06:59 PM

Are you serious, RAN? You would not buy a new Carver if it only costs you $25K? Wow! I'm very surprised by that. Personally, I would jump all over that thing at that price! But I have to admit that I am really in this thing for the love of the tilting technology, and not the EV part of it. I will be getting the Hybrid if/when VV ever gets it to market.

With gas prices rising daily (I just paid $4.29/gallon for low-grade!), I am slowly but surely coming over to your point of view on things. But this is simply due to monetary reasons alone, and nothing to do with environmental concerns, At least not yet.

I am an honest person, and I have been straight-forward with everybody from the very beginning. Sometimes this gets me in trouble with people that have a different point of view, but at least I lay my cards on the table, and people aren't wondering if I am sincere or not. But I can say that I am getting more and more THANFUL that I started this little forum. Why? Because I have learned a great deal from people like you. I still don't agree with 100% of what is said in this forum, but I can say that a whole new world is opening up to me, and I am starting to see things in a different light. For this I am truly grateful.

Keep those ideas and comments coming.

Derwin

RAN

05-25-2008, 07:20 PM

Believe it or not, that world only opened up fully for me maybe a year ago... but when it did, there was no stopping it =y:

Mark Tomlinson

05-25-2008, 10:10 PM

Second, I don't want a vehicle that burns gas. At all. I don't want anything that has an ICE in it. Look at it this way: if the hybrid V-1 can go 40 miles on batteries (I'll believe it when I see it), that would handle at least 95% of all my local driving. Which means at least 95% of the time, that ICE is sitting there, adding weight, with oil pooling at the bottom eating through the seals and gaskets. I'm probably carrying around a gallon of gas in the tank that's just sitting there for months too. I still have to worry about maintenance on the engine whether I use it or not. I still have to take it through emissions, probably, and if I take it on the road, I'm still polluting the air and I still have to buy gas. It still needs filters, oil changes, etc etc etc.
You absolutely nailed my feelings on the subject. When we look at the engineering of an ICE versus an electric drive train, the insanity of an ICE really starts to show. A modern ICE vehicle has something like 1,200 moving parts. The Tesla Roadster has twelve. Plus, the ICE has all the caustic, exploding, and degrading substances you mentioned. And the ICE does a crappy job of converting the stored energy in gasoline to vehicle motion - achieving roughly only 18% - while an electric vehicle typically see over 85% efficiency.

The only thing that's been holding back electrics is getting batteries that store enough power and recharge quickly enough to be practical for the common man. And that's where I have to concede that my next vehicle will have to be a hybrid. Its a concession I don't like making, but I have no other choice right now. We don't have the batteries, and we don't have the infrastructure to support them even if we did. A pure electric (BEV) might fit your needs, but it won't fit mine.

So, considering all of the above, I can not and will not consider a parallel hybrid like the Prius. It's actually more complicated than a typical ICE. The serial hybrid (or REEV) approach the VV is taking is much more to my liking. The drive train is pure electric and the Rotomax engine is a simple design. I still have to deal with gasoline and filters and oil, but it's far less of a nuisance. Plus, if I have engine problems, the car will continue to run and performance will not be compromised (provided I keep it charged).

PHEVadvocate

05-25-2008, 11:41 PM

Mark,

Let's see if Carver will sell us a glider (Industry term for a vehicle with no gas engine). It shouldn’t be too hard to import since there is no engine. It should be pretty easy to make it an EV too without an engine to remove. I wonder if there is room to put extra batteries under the rear seat?

For long range travel we can do this: http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm

I wonder if we could get the conversion done before the for the V1 gets on the road?
:IDEA:

MVRacing

05-25-2008, 11:48 PM

Let's see if Carver will sell us a glider (Industry term for a vehicle with no gas engine). It shouldn’t be too hard to import since there is no engine. It should be pretty easy to make it an EV too without an engine to remove. I wonder if there is room to put extra batteries under the rear seat?

I'm in, have them throw another one in the shipping container =y:

CelticFlyer

05-26-2008, 12:14 AM

Thanks for the input, Rogwild. You're absolutely right. Information and experience will prove valuable, whether it's obtained by driving a two-wheeler, or by simply familiarizing myself with its unique safety concerns.

RAN

05-26-2008, 12:17 PM

So, considering all of the above, I can not and will not consider a parallel hybrid like the Prius. It's actually more complicated than a typical ICE. The serial hybrid (or REEV) approach the VV is taking is much more to my liking. The drive train is pure electric and the Rotomax engine is a simple design. I still have to deal with gasoline and filters and oil, but it's far less of a nuisance. Plus, if I have engine problems, the car will continue to run and performance will not be compromised (provided I keep it charged).

I couldn't agree more. When I see everyone going nuts for a Prius (or worse, GM's "hybrid" SUVs), I have to shake my head in wonder.

Let's see if Carver will sell us a glider (Industry term for a vehicle with no gas engine). It shouldn’t be too hard to import since there is no engine. It should be pretty easy to make it an EV too without an engine to remove. I wonder if there is room to put extra batteries under the rear seat?

For long range travel we can do this: http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm

I wonder if we could get the conversion done before the for the V1 gets on the road?
:IDEA:

Nice idea, but since the Carvers are handbuilt, I don't think you'll save all that much getting a glider (although it might be easier to import that way).

I would really rather see VV make the all-EV model and make a longranger for trips, if they can only make 1 model to start... but, alas, so many people are so used to just filling up at the gas station, that I guess they want to go with something more familiar as their debut model.

As far as beating the V-1 to the road, I'd put my money with you guys! ;)

Maybe we should think about getting V-1 gliders when they're available =D

swazworth

05-26-2008, 01:18 PM

You might want to check out the FTR forum for information (not sure about the accuracy of the 'experts' figures) on the state of current 'solar charging efficiency' and what would be required to fully recharge a V~1 solely by solar panels:

http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=52&page=6&replies=172#post-14994

thanks rog that was a good read. i might have to keep thinking about this for a little bit longer. not the v-1, the solar charging station.

beeson

05-27-2008, 09:26 AM

Yesterday we bought a brand new car. My first ever new car purchase (i'm 55). It's a Nissan Altima Hybrid. Rated at 42/36hwy, but will probably get 33-36 average for either city or hwy. It's still and ICE car but the mileage is a big jump up. It will drive up to 40 in EV mode, if you keep your foot out of it. It's sooooo weird driving down the side streets in EV and hardly making a sound. People in parking lots don't hear you coming.

I've been hoping the VV would come out soon. Not to be. We had to replace an elderly Civic and just couldn't wait two more years. Hope I can afford the VV by the time it actually comes out.

Baja_Traveler

05-27-2008, 10:47 AM

I've been thinking about building an electric 914 for years. I even have the plans and drawings to do it (the 20k required is what stopped me). The mid engine cars (like the 914 and the boxter) make for almost perfect balance when batteries are stacked toward the center of the vehicle where the engine used to be. I've never considered a boxter, but I'll bet finding a nice rust free donor vehicle would be alot easier than the 914 -which is 30 years old. Here's another source for electric car conversion parts: http://www.electroauto.com/gallery/vp914.shtml

RAN

05-27-2008, 06:03 PM

Baja, thanks for the link. S Cal has to be the best place on earth to find either 914 or Boxster donor cars. I did a search over the weekend and found several Boxsters in the $12,000 range in CA.

BeepBeep

05-29-2008, 12:39 PM

I think this could work out fine. I have an Aptera Type1-h on reservation (two weeks ago) that I hope to have in about a year that I could drive for about a year and sell it in time to get the VV1-h.

What is going to happen in a few years is so worth the wait. I just hope the quality is what we hope it is.

waboom

05-29-2008, 08:46 PM

The other concern I have is that they mentioned the V1 is considered a motorcycle, and they considered that an advantage. I don't have a motorcycle license, nor have I ever ridden a motorcycle. Would it be wiser for me to get a motorcycle in the interim, learn to ride, then trade UP to a LARGER vehicle in the V1?

Curious alternatives lay before me...:confused:

CelticFlyer, I just re-read the Sacramento Bee article, and this line stuck out:

...but not yet a blended technology such as VentureOne, whose drivers will need neither helmets nor motorcycle licenses.

So according to the reporter (which I would take with a grain of salt), you won't need a motorcycle license for the V1 in California. However, I agree with rogwild, the motorcycle safety course sounds like a good idea just to make you more aware of motorcycle issues on the road (like keep that front wheel out of the "oil trail" on the road!) I won't be first in line to get a V1, but I'm considering taking the safety course anyways. Here in Georgia, the course costs $350 and runs for 5 days, Thursday-Monday (5:30-9 on the weekdays, 8-6 on Sat/Sun). At the end of it, if you pass you can get your motorcycle endorsement at the DMV without taking any written/road tests there, and might qualify you for a discount on motorcycle insurance as well.

waboom

05-29-2008, 09:51 PM

There's 2 parts in the GreenTech article that seem to be slight shifts in Venture Vehicle's message:

The company is also looking at a version that would run on liquid fuel, preferably a renewable one like biodiesel, he added.

I don't think I had ever seen VV mention doing a standard engine version of the V1. Am I mistaken? Also, from a quote in an old news article (http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=16008), I thought Venture Vehicles was only allowed to do electric/hybrid versions utilizing Carver's tilt technology:

Carver Engineering already produces a gasoline-powered version of the three-wheeled vehicle, but Venture Vehicles has the sole license for the production of electric and hybrid versions of the design in the U.S. and first refusal for production internationally.
I might be reading it wrong; possibly that means that while nobody else is allowed to make a Carver-based hybrid, VV is still allowed to use a gas engine if they want to.

The second shift I noticed was this:

The company also is not relying on the “green” angle to sell its cars. Mostly, it will promote the cars as a fun way to get around crowded cities.

Prior to this, it seems like all the articles about VV in the press were either from "green" locations (Greentech, AutoBlogGreen, &etc.), or were focused on the 100mpg aspect of the V1 (like the articles Ian referenced in his May 19 post (http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=720).)

Personally, I think that is a good decision. The "green" press is already pretty well aware of the vehicle and its advantages, so it will be continued to be covered from that angle. They now need to focus on the mainstream press so they can educate the general public how really really fun it is to LEAN!

MVRacing

05-30-2008, 12:10 AM

I don't think I had ever seen VV mention doing a standard engine version of the V1. Am I mistaken? Also, from a quote in an old news article (http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=16008), I thought Venture Vehicles was only allowed to do electric/hybrid versions utilizing Carver's tilt technology.

Ian has mentioned a special liquid fuel powered sport version limited edition, on which a race series would be based. Told him I'm in =y:

RAN

05-30-2008, 01:12 AM

the motorcycle safety course sounds like a good idea just to make you more aware of motorcycle issues on the road (like keep that front wheel out of the "oil trail" on the road!)

It's going to be difficult to drive a V-1 and keep all three tires out of the oily center part of the road. It's also going to be difficult to avoid potholes and road obstructions.

One reason why a V-1 won't be my sole means of transportation.

rogwild

05-30-2008, 09:57 AM

It's going to be difficult to drive a V-1 and keep all three tires out of the oily center part of the road. It's also going to be difficult to avoid potholes and road obstructions.

Quite true RAN, but knowledge of 'motorcycle-type' problems/hazards, might allow a V~1 driver to have his REAR wheel (with ABS, traction control, etc.) in the oily portion, instead of the FRONT wheel. Also knowledge of 'vehicle visibility' issues and some other 'standard precautions' might just keep you out of a potential accident situation. Motorcycles are 'different', and I'm sure the V~1 will have some 'quirks' of its own also.

RAN

05-30-2008, 10:53 AM

Rog, I owned 3 motorcycles out here in AZ. I rode for 6 years, and they were my primary means of transportation. My riding philosophy was simple; ride as if every car on the road was out to get me. It saved me more than once, but I still had to lay one of em down one night when some idiot tried to make a U-turn from the middle of 3 northbound lanes just as I was starting to pass him in the left lane (he was 2 lanes away from the real turn lane, which was on my left).

From a handling standpoint, sure, you absolutely want to keep that front tire out of the oily portion, but with only 3 tires on the tarmac, I don't want any of em in it. And you're still going to find yourself hitting almost "every bump in the road" because, while the V-1 is narrower than a car, it has tires everywhere within it's width; you can't straddle an obstruction like you can in a car, and you're going to have to swing wider around them than you would on a bike. You're not always going to have enough room to do that.

From the idle speculation dept: if tomorrow, all the gas-burning cars on the road were switched to pure EVs, how long would it take for the oily parts of the streets to disappear?

rogwild

05-30-2008, 11:30 AM

I agree RAN, but we were talking about the benefits of taking a 'Motorcycle Safety Course'. That will NOT make all hazards 'disappear', just make you better prepared to deal with them.
Like I said; "I'm sure the V~1 will have some 'quirks' of its own also."
As for the 'oily parts' of the streets disappearing,...how about when they are 're-paved'.

MVRacing

05-30-2008, 11:35 AM

I still had to lay one of em down one night when some idiot tried to make a U-turn from the middle of 3 northbound lanes just as I was starting to pass him in the left lane (he was 2 lanes away from the real turn lane, which was on my left).

From the idle speculation dept: if tomorrow, all the gas-burning cars on the road were switched to pure EVs, how long would it take for the oily parts of the streets to disappear?

Hate that ... I had to lay one down when a drunk in a Cady decided to turn right at a light from the left turn lane, 2 lanes over. Broke his rolled down passenger window with my (luckily) helmeted head.

Oil... there would still be some leaking diffs & trannys & cooling systems(not as many). =n:

cpaddock

05-30-2008, 11:53 AM

Saw talk of a cold-process, less energy intensive, emusion bound asphalt pavement
that is in use and development in other parts of the world where they don't have the luxury of expending energy cooking the asphalt to 300 degrees. This "green" pavement
just might be longer lasting and quieter. In some not too distant Mad Maxian future we may well see the pavement being ripped up and burned as fuel for cooking and warming
our teepees!
Does avoiding the oily track explain why so many bikers like to ride right next to the centerline? I've always been curious about this.
curves ahead!

MVRacing

05-30-2008, 12:04 PM

Does avoiding the oily track explain why so many bikers like to ride right next to the centerline? I've always been curious about this.
curves ahead!

Also gives you a bit more distance/reaction time for the idiots pulling out for the side streets that don't see you. =n:

rogwild

05-30-2008, 12:35 PM

It also puts them (and their headlight) in your side rearview mirror (hopefully out of your 'blind spot') for better visibility:IDEA:.....and it makes any "finger gestures" they may want to show you easier to see.:p

Hardtime11

05-30-2008, 10:53 PM

The originating note of this thread mentions the May 22, 2008 post of Greentech:
The serial hybrid VentureOne will drive 300 miles before it runs out of fuel, and also will be capable of running 40 miles on the battery alone, Bruce said. In 2007, he said the all-electric version of the car would be able to go around 120 miles on one charge. Thus, the hybrid will go more than twice as far. (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/three-wheeled-car-company-tweaks-its-strategy-926.html)If you look at it, it mentions referencing the early 2007 statement of Ian Bruce. The rest of it may be for future sense but that particular portion was from history of early 2007.

I linked it to the article but one might want to reread it in a third party view.
Sorry about the rain.:o

Jake

06-02-2008, 01:25 PM

I rode motorcycles for over 20 years. The oil in the center of the road is far less than it was in the late 70s and 80s. Usually, if it becomes an issue nowdays, it is right at the first part of a rain or in a very light rain. On all vehicles you cross back and forth over the middle of a road all the time. In fact, when I was riding on the twisty roads and really leaning I was often in the middle or crossing the middle of a lane and never had an issue to do with oil residue. Having said that, I would probably ride slightly to the left of a lane which should take all the wheels out of the middle. I have never felt my bike slip because of oil in the center but I could see it being a factor in a quick stop for a two wheeler. I have however found that rounding a corner where dirt or sand has blown makes it much more dangerous. I have been hit by debree coming off of trucks and slipped around a little on metal gratings over bridges. I see the VV1 as being far safer in all the circumstances where real world bike driving has presented challenges. I just don't see the possible oil residue in the middle of a road much of a concern.

rogwild

06-02-2008, 01:49 PM

Quite true 'Jake', but the 'oil in the road' was just one example of the many interesting (and possibly 'accident avoiding' facts) things that are learned in a Motorcycle Safety Training Course; definately not the MOST important. The other factors that you mentioned are also covered.

Jake

06-02-2008, 06:03 PM

Rogwild,
I didn't mean to down play the possible concern and I am all for MC safety courses. I took my first in 1978 or so I think. May have been later but seems like a very long time ago. If I remember my stats right, the average person in a MC accident is usually a young male, driving less than 2 years, speading, and some alcohol involvement (though not necessarily drunk). Nothing and I mean nothing is more important than experience. After riding about 10 years almost every day (my only transportation for much of that), you develope a sixth sense. You can sort of feel when someone is going to cut you off. You also become very aware of blind spots. Basically if you can't see a drivers face in the side mirror then they can't see you. Of course I know you know all this. I have a feeling that driving a VV1 will sort of make people want to go fast. that may be the most dangerous aspect of driving one. Take care.