Ian's July 2 Update (Alpha Propulsion)

[Derwin]

I was just contacted by Ian, and he told me that they are not "quite ready" to post this yet, and that they will be coordinating this with a major announcement coming soon. He kindly requested that I take this down for now, until further notice.

(the video has been taken down until the new announcement is made.)

THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING.

Derwin

[Derwin]

Man, that sucker is noisy, isn't it? As Ian stated, I think they have "some" work to do before getting this all together and combined with the actual alpha. But at least they're making progress!

Derwin

[TazmanianKoala]

This looks already very promising. And if I'm correct, I see some kind of Continously Variable Transmission, located in the top part of the propulsion unit. If that is true, it makes me even more proud of the the Venture One.
Just the noise production is something they have to work on.

[Bulldog]

It may seem noisy, but once in an enclosed area it won't be near that bad, plus a better system will more than likely be added for the noise. Excellent though otherwise!

[WarpedOne]

IanBruce@YouTube:

She lives! Before you ask, we're using an Azure Dynamics AC24 motor with a DMOC445 drive system. Notice the continuously variable transmission (CVT) above the motor. All the DVC hardware is already in there. Next steps are mounting the engine enclosure and mating it with the main cabin module. More on that when it happens.

Where is ICE??

Azure Dynamics AC24 & DMOC445 Whitepaper (http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/force-drive/documents/AC24_DMOC445ProductSheet.pdf)
Azure Dynamics AC24 Motor Specs (http://www.cems.uvm.edu/~aero/AC24_2007.pdf)

[WarpedOne]

Porsche 914 EV Conversion using AC24 & DMOC445 (http://914ev.blogspot.com/2008/02/smoothing-out-dmoc-accelerationbraking.html)

Interesting problem - oscilations under heavy acceleration and regen - too much torque :)

[rogwild]

Well, at least us 'early birds' got a sneak peek. Wish the camera would have panned around to the rear to get a glimpse at the ICE setup. I'm hoping that with the Power Pod cover on, and other road/tire noise the sound won't be too distracting.....or I can always boost the sound on the 'Top Gun' CD.

Geeze, I thought I'd seen a picture of the Alpha's Power Pod (from the rear) that had some of the components installed, but all I could find here was a picture of the Alpha's PP and cabin w/o any components. Guess I must have been dreamin' again.

[MVRacing]

Well, at least us 'early birds' got a sneak peek....

Yup, so glad I saw it and got it to Derwin early enough to post for a while.

WarpedOne, Thanks for posting the spec sheets. Interesting stuff there -

The motor is smaller (8.4" x 14.2") and lighter ( 83.6lbs) than I expected, with some great power (enough for a 3000lb car). Also, air cooled, so that eliminates radiator, coolant pump, hoses etc. Heck, the controller is bigger than the darn motor :rolleyes: and weighs almost half the motor weight. Now there is where we could use some electronics advancement!

[hedger65]

Hello to all fellow Flyers! I'm a long time member of the Venture Vehicle site but thought I would join up here as well. I almost got to see the sneek peek online,except our work computers are blocked on youtube-darn-darn darn!!! I hope Ian will release something soon as to keep us all under control. Anyway-lets keep it coming and we will all be flying sooner! hedger65.

[Derwin]

hedger65.... Glad you decided to join! We have a wealth of information in the main forum area, so please feel free to browse around. I guess you can call us the main independent "keeper" of all things related to Venture Vehicles, as well as some other interesting things!

If you have a question, or need help in any way, please don't hesitate to contact me.

WELCOME TO THE CLUB!

Derwin

[MikeB]

Azure Dynamics lists the Aptera as one of it's customers:
http://www.azuredynamics.com/customers/customers.htm

Having both companies use the same motor is a good thing, in my opinion, since that'll bring unit costs down and provide two sources for road testing.

[hedger65]

Derwin-Thanks for the welcome! I am a ev tech with Lexus and really want to get a Vv as soon as possible. But for now I would have liked to seen the video--hope to get a second chance soon. hedger65

[waboom]

Well, it's not an in-wheel motor system, but I'm not complaining. I'd actually hoped for in-wheel motors, more for the unique/advanced engineering curiosity factor. It seemed that in-wheel motors would take up less space in the propulsion module, but this engine seems tiny enough! Wonder what kind of rear axle will be there? And will the rear wheels still have turning ability as rumored long ago?

[Mike kZ]

Damn!!! I missed this, what happened????

[Derwin]

Damn!!! I missed this, what happened????

Ian posted a video of the Power Pod Propulsion unit. It was incredible! But then Ian contacted me and told me that he "jumped the gun" on releasing that video, and kindly asked me to take it down from the club for now. He also said that he would be releasing the video again with other things in a major announcement coming soon.

We had the video up for quite a while for members to view, but had to take it down out of respect for Ian. It should be up again soon.

Derwin

[CelticFlyer]

Is that "Ian soon" or "regular soon?" :LOL:

I missed it.

[RAN]

Is that "Ian soon" or "regular soon?" :LOL:

Yes.... :rolleyes:

[rogwild]

I wonder if that counts as the big "July Surprise"?

[Mark Tomlinson]

I didn't catch the video, but something has been bothering me about the comments. Why is there a CVT (continuously variable transmission) in an electric drive vehicle? At best, all I can think of is that they are building a parallel hybrid that sometimes uses the ICE to drive the wheels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Hybrid_vehicle_operation _modes).

I suppose the announcement "soon" will clear that up.

[MVRacing]

Why is there a CVT (continuously variable transmission) in an electric drive vehicle?

Hi Mark,

I saw the video 15 or so times and I was wondering about that also. I'm not entirely sure that the CVT wasn't driving the hydraulic accumulator.
Is that a possibility ... CVT to maintain a continuous speed for DCV hydraulic pressure?
I don't know, the video was a bit dark, and not the best quality. Guess we'll just have to wait & see.

[rogwild]

Question; Well its been a SHORT TWO WEEKS, how about something? Maybe even a 'hint' of how LONG, 'shortly' will be.

We're prepping a few things now... some big some small. Give us until Monday, tops.
-- Ian


IanBruce
Administrator

Hi Rog... not a time filler at all. In fact, we've brought in some big guns on this issue. As of our last all-hands meeting on the vehicle/company name (just last week) I had culled over 350 possible names from this thread. This has been a very valuable exercise.

Travis: "Footnote" Har, dee har-har! (in my best Fred Flintstone voice). ;)
Posted: 2008-07-17 13:33:18 #

[RAN]

LOL! I don't even go to the FTR site anymore, and I can't tell you how nice it is not to be exposed to this crap week after week.

Here, I can pass the time looking at news on all fronts of the EV revolution, and when the occasional update comes along, it gets posted here soon enough.

I'm so glad to hear Ian's bringing in "big guns" to decide on a name for a vehicle that doesn't even have a running prototype yet. They're never gonna come up with anything better than "V-1", even if they spend a million dollars. But I'm glad to to see he's finally got his priorities straight :rolleyes:

[Derwin]

Hey, I think you guys are confusing your fictitious characters. It was Ralph Kramden who always said to Alice...... Hardee, Har, Har!

Just thought that needed clarification for the record! :Beer:

Derwin

[RAN]

That was Ian's misquote. With 3,000 V-1 names running through his mind, he's a little confused. :LOL:

[Miracleman89]

Posted: 2008-07-17 13:33:18 #

:confused:Does this mean we should hear something by this Monday???:confused:

[Derwin]

NO WAY. THAT IS WAY TOO COOL, MM89! Very nice Avatar!

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

RAN made it for me!!! I am so stoked!

[Mike kZ]

I love it!!! MM89! :)

[RichDC]

Mm89 and Ran - THAT IS AWESOME!

[Miracleman89]

All I did was insert my pic into the V1 cockpit but RAN made it tilt!!!!

Here is to RAN!!!!:Beer::Beer::Beer::Beer::Beer::Beer::Beer:

[Miracleman89]

Well he said give us til Monday tops!!! Monday over I say that is permission to repost the original update! Of course that's just my opinion I could be wrong!

[rogwild]

Well he said give us til Monday tops!!! Monday over I say that is permission to repost the original update! Of course that's just my opinion I could be wrong!

"tops" cens:or:ed1= believeable "TO ONLY PHANATIC SUCKERS!"r:a:n:t:2:101

[Miracleman89]

Check Alpha Update 6/15/08 Ian finally sends word from Venture Vehicles!! ( note: no real update only an apology!)

[WarpedOne]

IanBruce@FTR.com:

I'll be more careful about making promises like this in the future.

I relly hope so. Or is this yet another promise? o:o:p:s12

[dgl]

This is my primary problem with Venture Vehicles. For a company otherwise savvy to new technology, they show a shocking blind-spot for the ability of the internet to spread their news.

Ian puts a clear priority on traditional media, getting excited about magazine articles and morning news blurbs. Which is rather hilarious when you consider how many more people he could reach if he emphasized online publicity. The entire company's business model is built around traditional distribution (consider how important Ian feels it is to secure traditional dealerships).

They need to hire someone to maintain their online presence. Ian shouldn't be making the updates at all. They need a full-time professional providing the news, improving the site, etc. Honestly? No forum search function? No CMS? They should be ramping up to sell these vehicles online, not limping along with a skeletal site and a half-functional forum. Those surveys they run through Vehicle Voice? They could be running them themselves (and I can practically guarantee that Vehicle Voice is charging too much for the privilege).

And asking the admins of a third party site to keep his secrets for him? I'm rather surprised that you complied with the request.

[Derwin]

dgl.... wel;co;m;e101))

I hear what your saying, and I have to agree with you 99.9%. So many people in this club have told Ian to hire an internet guy to handle the site, and to create a new forum. We have been telling him this for the past year, and even longer in some cases. For some reason it just falls on deaf ears. As far as us "keeping his secrets", well, Ian has helped us with some club projects, and I just thought we should honor his request out of respect and gratitude for what he has done for us.

Again....Welcome to the club!

Derwin

[Satt]

I was just contacted by Ian, and he told me that they are not "quite ready" to post this yet, and that they will be coordinating this with a major announcement coming soon. He kindly requested that I take this down for now, until further notice.

(the video has been taken down until the new announcement is made.)

THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING.

Derwin

CRAP I missed it!!! Well, that will teach me. I haven't logged in in a long while so I had it comming lol.

[Miracleman89]

I wonder when he plans on posting something??? With the responses I have read about the new survey I think they need to post something and address some if not all the concerns that the latest survey has caused!

[MVRacing]

I wonder when he plans on posting something??? With the responses I have read about the new survey I think they need to post something and address some if not all the concerns that the latest survey has caused!


MM89, I'm with you, but doubt we'll get anything too significant. Too bad.
At this point even a running Alpha wouldn't be enough.

[Miracleman89]

I hear ya!!! I am kind of surprised that Ian would dump this kind of info on us and not give some kind of response! I know I shouldn't be, but I am!

[Derwin]

C'mon, fellas....This was only a SURVEY. It does NOT mean that they are headed in that direction. They were simply QUESTIONS...that is all. Like most of you, I was also upset, as I said, when I went through the survey, but let's not make TOO MUCH out of it.

I say let's give Ian and the team the benefit of the doubt until THEY ACTUALLY POST SOMETHING confirming or denying these downgraded specs. Just my thought on the matter.

Derwin

[rogwild]

I agree with Derwin, that this latest 'survey' has no real meaning and is just to get reactions to 'possible PROJECTIONS'; and is no more than more extraneous 'Marketing FLUFF'. Perhaps released to divert attention that Vv has again FAILED to meet their 'delayed' projection of the ALPHA by the end of July!

Heck, 75 mpg or 100 mph......10-20-40 miles EV range have no REAL meaning if they have yet to build a vehicle that moves under its own power...and even gets 1 MPG.

Git 'r DONE!

[Miracleman89]

Not to be a fly in the ointment but the last time we got a survey the projections listed in it were right on the money! I am not saying that this makes it all true but it does add some validity!

[Derwin]

Not to be a fly in the ointment but the last time we got a survey the projections listed in it were right on the money!

MM89....How do you define "right on the money"?? As of now, they don't even have a working vehicle yet. I would think that NOTHING is in concrete right now, especially the specs. It seems with each survey they are throwing out new figures, none of which have been implemented yet, as far as we know. So I don't think anything said in any of the surveys has been on or off the money in regards to describing what they have actually BUILT AND TESTED. We have yet to receive any solid information about that yet.

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

I am refering to the price increase and the projected 0-60 times jumping from under 5 seconds to less then 7 seconds which according to this they now are projecting 7.5 seconds. Like I said I am not saying anything is "concrete" but the fact that they have continued to lower the standards is what has really given me pause! Now I can't remember when it was or if it was in the official forum or through an e-mail but I remember addressing the 0-60 time jump the last time it came into question and Ian stated that 7 seconds was the least they would except but they were still hopeful of reaching 5. That being said we are now being asked about 7.5??? I know that this does not add up to a whole heck of a lot of difference but when your told the least they would except is 7 sec. and now they ask about 7.5, I mean what is next! At this point I will no longer lower my standards. VV needs to produce the vehicle that attracted me to them in the first place and quit trying to get a read on what is or is not acceptable! Set the bar and simply do it!!! That is what I am saying!

[Derwin]

Well, I still don't understand why you are taking a SURVEY so seriously. If, in fact, Ian himself came out and told us that the vehicle will now only be getting around 75mpg, and that it will be going 0 to 60 in 10.5 seconds, and that the projected cost is now to be around $35,000, THEN I WOULD BE CONCERNED!

I think what they are doing now is simply testing the waters to get peoples opinion on certain things. Well, I think they are accomplishing that in spades! Hopefully, as a result of this survey, they will see what things are most important to people. That's the reason for the survey....It's NOT to announce new specs, or even a new direction, In my honest opinion..... But, hey, I could be wrong!

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

I maybe wrong as well and I hope I am! I guess what really gets to me is, with the lack of updates, I was expecting some really neat information to come our way and instead we get a survey that amounts to nothing more then a "what would you pay" scenario! During which time they throw out performance numbers that are even lower then what we have all been talking about! At this point I am not sure what to make of it all! I just want Ian to step up and address the concerns that were raised by this survey!

[beeson]

Does anyone think that Vehicle Voice came up with the numbers that were used????? I didn't think so. So the numbers came from VV. Why change the specs in a survey if those numbers aren't something they want to have responses to. Remember this survey was not sent out to the general public (ie. people that have no idea what the original concept was). It was sent to people that, for the most part, have the original numbers burned into their brains. These numbers were not chosen on a whim, they DO have a meaning. They are the numbers VV wants us to evaluate and respond to. Why else would they use these numbers??

I'm taking these numbers seriously because they are the ONLY numbers VV is giving us. We have no other source of info from them. They have told us nothing in a very long time. If those numbers mean nothing, then the survey means nothing and VV is just wasting my time asking me to respond to them.

[Derwin]

beeson... Last year, when Ian first contracted with Vehicle Voice to do these surveys for them, he stated that the survey was NOT just sent to people like US. The surveys, in fact, are sent to people that KNOW NOTHING ABOUT VENTURE VEHICLES at all, as well as people like us who have been following this for a long time.

Sure, the numbers are coming from Venture Vehicles. But, again, I would think that we have to take a survey for just what it is....a survey.

Derwin

[beeson]

Derwin, all I can go by is the email I was sent. To quote:

"You are being sent an invitation to take this survey because you have gone to FlyTheRoad.com and expressed some interest in the VentureOne vehicle. We'd like to give you this opportunity to tell us what you think about it.

This survey is being distributed to a highly select audience, so your individual responses here will have a big impact on the final vehicle design......You have received this email from VehicleVoice because you are a registered VehicleVoice panel member."

If I misunderstand what "highly select" means, mea culpa.

All of this could be cleared up by a simple update from someone at VV.

[Derwin]

I guess I didn't explain it properly. Yes...YOU received the invite to participate in the survey because you are signed-up at the Venture Vehicle website. But the survey was sent to FAR MORE people than just those that have signed up at the official website. Ian stated this long ago. I think Vehicle Voice sends this to all those that are on THEIR LIST as well. My only point in regards to this is that WE are not the ONLY people to be participating in the survey...this is a fact that Ian pointed out many months ago.

Derwin

[Mike kZ]

Damn! I was on vacation the last 10 days. I got the survey invite, went to it today, and it was closed! What where the questions?

[AZEqualizer]

Mike take a look here (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=547).

[Derwin]

I was contacted by a fellow member immediately after the propulstion video was released by Ian (and then immediately pulled!). He sent me a lot of DETAILED information about certain elements of what HE saw, as well as some other interesting stuff. He told me NOT too share it with anyone, but I just made another request, and he said I could post the below comment:



The Rotomax controller on the sandrail as being one sold by Mototron, because I use the same controller.

MotoTron is a electronic control system integrator (software systems) and some of their Electronic hardware is sourced by suppliers like Continental Automotive. I find it interesting that Continental is one of the potental partners for the Chevy Volt battery pack.

I gave MotoTron a link to VV and I do know they contacted VV, but I have not heard anything else.

Mototron could be providing the controller for the V1, they have the hardware, software, and the programing knowledge.


The above is all I can share at this time, but I have a feeling that the "rest of the story" will be released very soon by Venture Vehicles.

Derwin

[ziggy951]

I must be late t this party...what sandrail?




Z

[Mark Tomlinson]

I must be late t this party...what sandrail?

Z

It's a dune buggy sort of thing, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandrail. Ian Bruce and VV used one as their drive train mule, http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1804&highlight=sandrail#post1804

[ziggy951]

Here I am thinking that I had a good understanding of what is happening and what as happened with V! so far and I get slapped with a noob stick. Thanks for the knowledge.


Z

[waboom]

Did anyone ever figure out what the CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) was actually attached to? I know MVR speculated that it could possibly be hooked up to the DVC hydraulic accumulator, but if Carver didn't need it, I don't see why V1 should. Could it have been between the ICE and the generator, if the ICE was puny enough it might need the CVT to actually start turning the generator until it got up to optimal RPM?

[AZEqualizer]

The CVT was hooked between the electric motor and the rear drive axle for the rear wheels ... it used a drive belt similar to a Harley rear end drive belt. So instead of using a automatic transmission like the Tesla Roadster it uses a CVT.