Autocyle vs Motorcycle

[AZEqualizer]

Autobloggreen decided to contact the Motorcycle Riders Foundation for their qualified opinion on what should be done to combat this growing issue. Here's what Jeff Hennie, Vice President of Government Relations Motorcycle Riders Foundation, had to say on the subject:

"The federal government is aware of the issue of three wheeled enclosed vehicles and the fact that they are titled and licensed as motorcycles as is legal under current law. The Motorcycle Riders Foundation has asked the Federal Department of Transportation Secretary Mary Peters to create a new class of vehicle that is separate from motorcycles for these "autocycles" in a July 1st meeting in DC. Three wheeled enclosed vehicles (even if enclosed with a simply a rollcage) are for all practical purposes a car that is allowed to skate around the rigorous federal safety standards that all autos built for use in the USA must meet. These autocycles are meant to perform as a car, yet do not have to meet any of the hundreds of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). We must be careful to not unwittingly create hardships for trike and sidecar setups or even vehicles like the new Piaggio MP3. For the safety of the future owners of enclosed autocycles, these vehicles must be put into their own class of road worthy vehicles and not just be considered another motorcycle."

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/18/editorial-why-make-three-wheeled-vehicles-are-they-legal-shou/

[Miracleman89]

Well looks like they will soon be putting a stop to three wheeled vehicles! What will probably happen is they will give them a new classification and then restrict the heck out of them and slap on as many safety regulations as possible. All of which will come with the full support and lobbying of the Big Three of course! And with the fuel economy that these things get you know that Big Oil will be breathing down there necks to regulate and restrict them as much as possible! Anyone who has seen the video who killed the electric car can recall the CARB board bowing before the Awesome power of the Big Three!

God help us all! If we aren't careful it will all be over before it gets started!

[Mark Tomlinson]

Well, at least airbags won't be "optional" anymore.

[RAN]

An autocycle class makes sense to me. Unfortunately, the creation of such a class of vehicle will require a fair dose of common sense to implement. How long will we have to wait for that??

[AZEqualizer]

Yes, an autocycle class makes sense .... unfortunately I feel this will be used as a way to regulate (and make compliance too costly) this class out of existence. This way it can't threaten either the motorcycle manufacturers or the autos or for that matter big oil.... instead of getting the crap-o-matics to comply to something sane.

Will common sense prevail? With lawyers, politicians and lobbyists at the helm (as Ran said) where are they going to come up with common sense? Instead it will be about greed, which they know quite well.

[MHARVEYM]

What ever happened to the "LAND OF THE FREE AND HOME OF THE BRAVE"..........IT HAS TURNED INTO..................."LAND OF POLITICAL PLAY GROUND"

[MVRacing]

Another reason to get as many on the road as possible before they are outlawed.

[AZEqualizer]

The only thing I would like to see regulated is have minimum emissions standards ... as for the rest have a realistic fuel economy rating and a crash rating. The crash rating (front, side and rear) could be similar to European say have 0-5 stars... plainly post these five things on the vehicles than let the people purchase it with their eyes open. Those that choose to be part of the Darwin Awards ... so be it.

At least this way it is even ground!

Too many lobbyists, lawyers and politicians.... the shuttle to off the planet is leaving on track 5.... All aaaaaboard!!!

[Jack Willard]

I think maybe you meant to say maximum emission standards? u:n:s;ure;5(

I'd rather not see too much in the way of regulations, especially the crash rating. That's a very expensive testing process that would certainly have to be added to the price of the vehicle.

I think the marketplace will dictate what is needed. Afterall, isn't that much of the purpose and usefulness of this forum website and that survey that was just conducted by VV?

An autocycle classification would be useful in my opinion. I think it would simplify the licensing process in all the States, and encourage more vehicle products to be developed. It would clarify things and level the playing field as it were. Best to not over-regulate a brand new market though. Leave plenty of room for innovation. The marketplace will decide who wins and who fails. v:i:c:t;o;ry1)

[AZEqualizer]

Maybe I was not very clear... I was saying that instead of the way vehicles are currently regulated (meaning all vehicles not just autocycles) they should simplify but still give people a method to evaluate the vehicle. Much like Europe with the star method for crash ratings. List the crash rating for the vehicle then let the customer decide (say 0-5 stars). Also list a practical rating for fuel efficiency. And a standard for emissions where the vehicle has to meet or exceed an emission standard and show how far they exceed the standard.

[ziggy951]

Remember, with every idiotic law Congress enacts, there is an equally sane loophole that is placed somewhere else in the bill.

Worst case scenario is that we all have to buy the shell and "engine" separately and put them together. This bypasses basically EVERY state and federal law because it will be classified as a kit car.

There you have it. Now lets hope that I dont have to come back here and post an o:o:p:s12



Z

[AZEqualizer]

In an article on WardsAuto.com (http://wardsauto.com/ar/lutz_break_testing_080829/).
The U.S. should suspend crash-testing requirements in order to allow auto makers to speed more fuel-efficient models to the market, says Bob Lutz, General Motors Corp.’s vice chairman and product-development chief.

Detroit-based auto makers are lobbying for a $50 billion federal financing package to fund product development and retooling to more fuel-efficient vehicles.


http://subscribers.wardsauto.com/images/2007/08/bob-lutz2.jpg
Lutz GM's vice chairman...
“We also would like a 3-year moratorium on certain U.S. front- and side-impact crash test regulations,” Lutz adds. “The regulations impact our ability to bring in several high-mileage small cars we make elsewhere in the world.


“In Europe, the crash-test procedures are different than in the U.S., so the tests are different. If our government says cars that meet crash tests in other countries are good enough to be sold here, we would have more high-mileage, small-car flexibility.”

[waltbscott]

As long as there are guys tailgating in lifted Ford F-350 crewcabs, I want my crash tests 'as-is'.

[Hardtime11]

I am with you waltbscott. If Law Enforcement would actually enforce safety and vehicle regulations we would not have that problem. In Florida alone where there are a lot of jacked up trucks from redneck wannabes and then suspension screwed low riders from a lot of the gangs a lot could be fixed. As there are bumper and headlight height rules/laws that would rectify a lot of it. There are actually maximum and minimum heights for a lot of stuff out there. Not to mention lighting/visibility requirements.

Now if the local LEO's would actually adhere to the laws themselves and then in turn enforce them it would help a lot. As it is now they only enforce laws after the fact or when someone has actually annoyed them. Or their boss has gotten on to them for not doing very much for the past month or so. We have DOT weigh stations and DOT patrol officers (even though not many) that drive around and enforce safety on the Commercial vehicles why not do the same for Smaller vehicles. It would not actually take more officers just more officers actually doing what they are supposed to be doing instead of the prestige and ego alone thing.


PS..Before anyone goes off half-cocked I have more than a few years association as and with LEO's and I can speak from a little bit of experience. I have seen it all to many times.

[ziggy951]

“In Europe, the crash-test procedures are different than in the U.S., so the tests are different. If our government says cars that meet crash tests in other countries are good enough to be sold here, we would have more high-mileage, small-car flexibility.”

If that happened I wouldnt care about the things I do now...Id import a late 90's model Skyline :) Maybe one of the newer models of Fairlady Z even. Oh OH OH.. a Cosworth! Maybe even a V4 STI. My goodness you would see an entirely new aftermarket surge in the US.



Z

[wireman]

DERWIN! EMERGENCY! EMERGENCY!
I have just read an article in the WALL STREET JOURNAL that states a bill passed and is soon to be signed that would call all ENCLOSED CABIN THREE WHEELERS cars under it's auspices! Aptera says they were going to do the crash testing etc... to meet the car standard anyway, so it won't matter to them, but your favorite and mine could be affected!

Derwin, please see if you can reach Howard L. ASPAP and get his input. If anything will bring Persu out of the cone of silence this should!

[WarpedOne]

to meet the car standard anyway, so it won't matter to them, but your favorite and mine could be affected!

True, but if you only build one (or few) vehicles, they will not crash it to determine its safety. Around here it is called "unique vehicle homologation", crash testing is not necessary.

On the other hand, such a bill would stop naysayers going "naaaah they've only mounted three wheels so they hadn't had to meet safety regulations, this vehicle is not safe". People building such vehicles in small numbers shouldn't be affected by this, companies going after bigger numbers should and will.

This is good.

[wireman]

I've said it before: If there is any way the politicos can mess with your dream, they will find it! Especially if it will undercut or hamper competition for their big business cronies! This legislation could possibly put a crimp in Warped1's, Ziggy's, and my efforts as well. It depends on whether it will reach all the way to the kit/homebuilt level.

[Derwin]

I just called Phil Oseas to see if he or Howard knew about this legislation (I have a feeling they do!), and to see if anything new is happening behind the scenes. Unfortunately, I only got his voicemail, but he is very good about calling me back. So for now I guess we have to wait and see.

Derwin

[wireman]

O.K. Warped, I see your point. I was already writing the added post above and when I returned to topic your post popped up. I truly hope you are correct that it will not have any further reach, because I want to be able to register my 3 wheeler as a motorcycle here in Texas. In some States I understand that if you build a kit with any part of the engine/ drivetrain of a donor car, you are held to ALL the Fed/State regs for that year's fleet specs.

BTW Thanks Derwin for your prompt efforts!

[Miracleman89]

I am curious to know if this will effect the Persu as to whether or not it can use the car pool lanes?

[MikeB]

I have just read an article in the WALL STREET JOURNAL that states a bill passed and is soon to be signed that would call all ENCLOSED CABIN THREE WHEELERS cars under it's auspices!

Just a note: I know there was a bill making it's way through congress that was aimed at the DoE funding for energy efficient vehicles. This money wasn't allowed to go to 3 wheel vehicles, but companies like Tesla were able to grab big loans. It's quite possible that the bill the WSJ is talking about is the DoE funding bill, and might not affect the safety standards that Persu/Aptera need to meet.

We need to double check which bill actually passed, since the effects are entirely different from our point of view, and both bills were being worked on.

[waboom]

Wireman, was this the article you read from the Wall Street Journal?
Debate Arises on 3 Wheeler (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125288146359206959.html)

In the article, the definition of automobile would change only for the DOE loan program for fuel-efficient car development. Currently, for that program it has to have 4 wheels. In the legislation co-sponsored by Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.), the requirements would expand to include any vehicle that's fully enclosed, can carry 2 adults, and average 75 mpg. Aptera is the company that's mentioned in the article, but I see no reason why it wouldn't include Persu as well.

Nowhere did I see it mention that it would be necessary to do all the car-like things as well, like DOT crash testing, &etc.

Here is Schiff's press release (http://schiff.house.gov/HoR/CA29/Newsroom/Press+Releases/2009/House+Passes+Schiff+Bilbray+Measure+to+Expand+Dome stic+Fuel+Efficient+Car+Technology.htm) on the measure.

The legislation is embedded in H.R. 3183.

[wireman]

Not sure, waboom. The article I scanned was reached via link from my cabin scooter yahoo group, and I didn't pay attention to the URL when I jumped. I can't quote chapter/verse, but there was a couple of lines in it that hinted at a possible snag for us in subsidiary legislation attached to the bill. Or maybe later in other proposals to be considered. I will follow it back and let you know.

[wireman]

Checked it back, guys. Here is the link: http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1035228_

[wireman]

Well, I will try again to do this. When I checked back, the link got me a page error. Lemesee here, uh...
http://allcarselectric.com/blog/1035228_is-a-3-wheel-vehicle-a-car-house-votes-yes-new-bill-could-jeopardize-evs-like-aptera-2e-and-zap-alias

[MVRacing]

Congress approves three-wheelers for DOE funds (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/16/congress-approves-three-wheelers-for-doe-funds/)

by Jeremy Korzeniewski (http://green.autoblog.com/bloggers/jeremy-korzeniewski/) (RSS feed (http://green.autoblog.com/bloggers/jeremy-korzeniewski/rss.xml)) on Oct 16th, 2009 at 5:05PM

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/aptera-final-design-lead.jpg (http://green.autoblog.com/photos/aptera-2e-final-design-rendering/)
Aptera 2e final design rendering - Click above to enlarge


Following months (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/14/washington-debates-if-the-aptera-2e-should-be-considered-a-car/) of debate (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/03/apteras-chances-of-getting-doe-loan-money-improving/), Congress has approved a bill that will pave the way for three-wheeled vehicle manufacturers like Aptera to qualify for funding from the Department of Energy. Next step: President Obama's desk, and the Commander-in-Chief is reportedly expected to sign the bill into law in short order. Rep. Brian Bilbray, a Republican from California that co-sponsored the bill, says:

This is a huge win for scientific innovation and the environment. We need more innovation and less regulation when it comes to promoting new ways to save energy while saving money at the pump.
Indeed, three-wheeled vehicle platforms sometimes have the potential to use less energy to operate than their four-wheeled siblings, though some still question the inherent safety of such designs. Assuming the bill passes the President's desk, any manufacturer of enclosed three-wheeled vehicles that can carry at least two adults while returning at least 75 miles per gallon will be eligible for funding, though the DOE will still approve applications on a case-by-case basis.

[bmwgc1946]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]--> Good news for those of you that live in States with helmet laws and License restrictions. In today’s Federal Register the FHWA is promoting a new law to help states redefine “Three wheel Enclosed vehicles. They have set up a separate classifications of two wheeled, three wheeled, an smaller vehicles so they better manage their laws and accident collection information for the Federal Government. They are hoping the states will use this law revision to change their laws.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2011/2011-10258.htm

They even incorporated one of my comments;

Some commenter also addressed the need to
keep these smaller fuel-efficient
vehicles on the road, both for energy
conservation reasons and to allow
individuals with disabilities or older
individuals an option for driving similar
to the experience of motorcycling.

OK Howard it looks like the Feds have made your job a little bit easier.

[Miracleman89]

Well it is about time!!! LOL I think we ran a campaign back when the old FTR forum was open, trying to get them to redefine the motorcycle classifications. Now we just need to get the individual State Transportation departments to address helmet laws for the enclosed vehicles!

[RawNRG]

Wose case senerio. Until your state gets around to changing their helmet laws, buy a flight helmet off e-bay. Meets the requirement to have a helmet, and you can still "fly the road" in style. You will still get helmet hair, but at least the helmet looks cool.

[WarpedOne]

What is cool?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B6cJ5S51L._SX342_.jpg
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/dgilder/dgilder1010/dgilder101001775/8052936-a-businessman-in-old-fashioned-flight-helmet-and-goggles-with-a-silly-expression.jpg
http://www.disguises-fancy-dress.co.uk/bmz_cache/f/f720bc07eb77e4a6a0d8d0c03238ee6f.image.187x250.jpg
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/54411/54411,1191294171,1/stock-photo-mannequin-with-flight-helmet-goggle-scarf-and-jacket-5800657.jpg

[Ronzo]

http://flighthelmet.com/item_photos/prhhs4bwdc5.gif
http://www.aviationhelmets.com/images/anvis6-q-release.jpg

[RawNRG]

http://flighthelmet.com/item_photos/prhhs4bwdc5.gif
http://www.aviationhelmets.com/images/anvis6-q-release.jpg

These are the ones I was refering to. If you have to wear a helmet, these at least would look better than a regular one. And who knows what you could do with the mic set up.