Hydrogen Fuel Enhancement System

[Derwin]

I just received an email from a guy selling some weird new system that has some incredible claims. Below is the content of the email. Please let me know what you think.

Can you really tap into the gas saving power of the Hydrogen and Oxygen in water !

As you probably know there is a phenomenon going on within the grassroots alternative energy community. The technology is fantastic and simple at the same time. Who would have thought that water could be made to burn. Searching on the internet will produce many results and at youtube.com you will see many videos regarding this subject. Click explosion above to see HHO gas igniting.

Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrogen has energy that can be ignited just like gasoline or diesel. And oxygen is needed for any combustion process. Our generator releases hydrogen and oxygen gases from the water through the process of electrolysis. Electrolysis occurs when an electric current is run through a water solution with electrolyte, in the case of most hydrogen generators, baking soda is a safe electrolyte.

Our generator is an on-demand system that creates the hydrogen only after the ignition of your car is turned on. Once the generator has a current passing through the electrolyte solution the hydrogen is produced and then sent to the air intake system of the vehicle where it mixes with the gasoline or diesel fuel, increasing the power of the combustion.


Using our Hydrogen Generator with our MAP Enhancer turns your vehicle into a lean burning, hybrid, substantially saving you money on fuel and lowering emissions.

Complete Kit developed and tested in real-world under-hood conditions, contains EVERYTHING you need to do it yourself !

http://i271.photobucket.com:80/albums/jj146/billyf777/KIt1-19.jpg

Many people have achieved impressive results with the better kits available, but only after performing the sensor adjustments to lean the air fuel ratio. Instruments to monitor mileage, HHO production levels and computer codes, such as a Scangauge and OBD Reader are almost mandatory.

Stephanie J. in Las Vegas writes ;
" My husband drives across the desert and he wanted a tough unit, not like the "kit" he had tried that melted .He said the cheap aquarium hoses turned into spaghetti and leaked everywhere. This kit is rock solid and he's going to get one for my car! "

Robert F. in Dallas writes ;
I tried one those inexpensive kits that didn't have everything else I would need and I couldn't do anything with it. I gave it to a neighbor kid and bought yours. Not only did it have everything I needed but it is a tough unit that makes gas like CRAZY. Installed it myself over the weekend and I can't wait to take mileage readings.

[MVRacing]

Another scam...IMHO

[Derwin]

Another scam...IMHO

Of course, that's my thought also. But I wanted to see if people who are knowledgeable in this area could speak to the actual science involved, and if it is indeed feasible. Or, naturally, if it IS just a scam!


Derwin

[RAN]

Search on autobloggreen Derwin, it's pretty much been hashed out before.

[meckman1]

Researched this earlier this year. The prevailing wisdom then was that this was a hoax.

[PHEVadvocate]

www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4276846.html

What makes a scam like this so good, it that their are so many variables involved you can easily fudge a few to make it look like it works. Anybody who knows what they are doing with an engine can adjust it to get better fuel economy; you just loose some power or pollute more.

[ziggy951]

Water injection does work, if done correctly, by increasing the compression ratio inside the cylinder walls. This increases horsepower and decreases heat. A water injection kit looks similar to that kit as well.

It actually looks like a water injection kit combined with a oil catch can setup. The oil catch can removes extra oil from the EGR system in automotive systems. This reduces the AF ratio ever so slightly and keeps the intake plenum and other associated areas clean, thereby also increasing, ever so slightly, air flow into the intake manifold.


So it technically may work, but not in the same way they claim it will.


Z

[Lumberjack]

Its called browns gas.
Does the gas work? yes
Does it actually save gas? maybe.
The gas is created by splitting water which requires a lot of electricity.
Producing electricity uses fuel - nothings free but if it used strictly waste electric then it could get a decent gain out of it.

Is it a hoax? likely
Could it damage your car? yes.

Gotta try it anyway? Test it on an old rust bucket first......

[denisg]

Even if this did work you would not be able to get it to pass smog here in califorina. You cannot alter your engine in any way. If you do they will not even test it. Your car false's the smog check.

[Peacemaker]

An associate of mine put one on his '93 civic. He claims to get 60mpg. my unaltered '91 civic got 35mpg, even with my heavy foot.

[AZEqualizer]

Yep and Santa is coming to town early this year. :shivering:

[RetNav]

Of course, that's my thought also. But I wanted to see if people who are knowledgeable in this area could speak to the actual science involved, and if it is indeed feasible. Or, naturally, if it IS just a scam!


Derwin


This is my first post but I wanted to respond to your question.
I built a unit and put it on a 2001 Hyundai Elantra that was getting 32 mpg on the highway. Testing has shown a constant 45 mpg highway. I did have to put an electronic unit in to offset the reading going to the computer.

I also built and installed a hydrogen only generator on a 2007 Dodge Ram 1500 Hemi and during warm weather it gets 25 mpg highway. This is a lot better than before installation. With the Hydrogen only there is no mods required to the electronics.

The above is only my experience and I don't care what others have to say about it being a scam, it has worked for me. I am not selling or recommending anything, just stating my findings.

[AZEqualizer]

Fuel mileage is not the end all litmus test for any vehicle modification. Here is the thing.... There are plenty of cheats that you can modify a car to make it more fuel miserly, including leaning the heck out of the engine. But at what cost? Burned valves,Fused spark plugs, burned cylinders, destroyed components in the emission control systems?

As an example: Trying to modify a standard ice engine (or rather build one from the ground up using more or less standard components) to even burn Hydrogen gas is no small undertaking, unless you could car less about long term function or reliability. It's not like standard engine components were designed with the temperatures and fuel- air ratios of Hydrogen as a fuel.

Look how simple it is for a vehicle to burn ethanol but depending on the parts that are in the vehicle and the ratio of ethanol to gasoline ... you can have some big problems... long term.... even short term.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Anyone that can't back up their results with hard core scientific facts (verified by outside reliable sources) but resorts to voodoo science and testimonials ... then your scam alert detector should deafen you!

When was the last time you took one of these engines apart to examine what these modifications did to them?

[MVRacing]

Hi ya retnav, and welcome! wel;co;m;e101))

How long/miles, have you been running the Dodge on this system? Same for the Elantra? Are both on the same system?
I'd be interested in hearing about costs/installation times, and problems you had getting it tuned.

[RetNav]

MVRacing,

I have had the installation on the Elantra for 13,000 miles. The only problems
we have had on it is a little more power, less gas used, and the engine runs
smoother. According to a laser temp taken at the exhaust manifold with the
unit on it is cooler by 125 degrees.

The mixture of browns gas is not enough to be a fuel replacement, it only changes the burn speed of the mixture and therefore gives a more complete
burn of the gas/hydrogen mixture.

I have had the unit on my Dodge for approximately 4500 miles and have had no problems with anything on the vehicle.

Incidently, you can run your finger inside the tailpipe on both vehicles and there is no soot/oily residue. The pipe is clean. There is a little bit of water that comes from the exhaust pipe on both.

[ziggy951]

This is my first post but I wanted to respond to your question.
I built a unit and put it on a 2001 Hyundai Elantra that was getting 32 mpg on the highway. Testing has shown a constant 45 mpg highway. I did have to put an electronic unit in to offset the reading going to the computer.

I also built and installed a hydrogen only generator on a 2007 Dodge Ram 1500 Hemi and during warm weather it gets 25 mpg highway. This is a lot better than before installation. With the Hydrogen only there is no mods required to the electronics.

The above is only my experience and I don't care what others have to say about it being a scam, it has worked for me. I am not selling or recommending anything, just stating my findings.

You I am sorry to say are full of it.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/noframes/16642.shtml

This lists the 2001 Elantra of having an estimated mpg of 30 on the highway. Lets say you are light on the right foot and you only do high way driving and get 32-34 average mpg. You are either lying about this device, too embarrassed to acknowledge you were duped, need to recheck your math, or did more extensive modifications to your vehicle than you have listed. Even a jump from 35-40 is a stretch for that vehicle, but 32-45...you have got to be kidding me. You are claiming a 40% increase in fuel economy.

r:o:f:l:2:2:1

[RetNav]

The post by ziggy951 is the reason I hesitated to post a response to Derwin about the hydrogen use.

People that have never tried anything are all experts in everything.

I don't care what anyone believes as to the effectiveness of this technology. As I stated earlier, I am not selling or recommending anything, just stating what results I have gotten.

As far as I am concerned the topic is closed.

[ziggy951]

The post by ziggy951 is the reason I hesitated to post a response to Derwin about the hydrogen use.

People that have never tried anything are all experts in everything.

I don't care what anyone believes as to the effectiveness of this technology. As I stated earlier, I am not selling or recommending anything, just stating what results I have gotten.

As far as I am concerned the topic is closed.



Cooler by 125 degrees...........You cant see it but I am slapping my forehead in disbelief. A drop of 125 degrees in temperature would make your car RUN WORSE and consume MORE fuel. 10-30 degrees less will improve performance in most conditions but 125 would cause problems.


As for your comment about not trying this technology but pretending to be an expert......

A friend of mine, also the best man at my wedding, owns a shop in Loveland, Colorado that builds race cars and modifies street vehicles. We decided to do our own testing on this technology because he was getting a few requests for installations. We came to the conclusions I posted above. We tried out one of these so called kits on a 1990(maybe a 92 or 93) Ford Bronco, 2003 BMW M3, 2000 Subaru Impreza, and a 2005 Honda Civic and found "LESS" of a gain with this system than we found on a simple water injection (spray directly into the intake, post air filter) system on each vehicle. We measured HP and Tq on a dyno, gas mileage averaged over a month of use (technically I think it was 25 days), and we did an exhaust scope analysis with and without the system on each vehicle.....as in we spent actual money and time on these tests.

These kits and the claims they make are ridiculous. Think about it for a second. A 2009 Prius should get an estimated highway gas mileage of 45 mpg. That is estimated. Lets say it averages that 45mpg consistently though. When you add one of these kits you are supposed to miraculously improve one of the most fuel efficient vehicles made with modern technology by 20%!?!? That means you should get 54mpg on the highway after one of these kits is installed.

Their claims are a joke and the product is an outright lie. If it were true every single car in America would have one of these things installed. You wouldnt be able to "keep it secret" because of the benefits of such a product. If it were true they would be selling like crazy and you would probably be able to buy them at Walmart. "The man" wouldnt be able to keep a lid on it because of its obviously low cost and simplicity.

If it were true I would still have one installed on my Impreza and would have installed one on every vehicle of every one of my family members. I would have probably developed my own kit and would be selling it right now.

Lastly, if it were true I would be a serious advocate of the product and would be typing the exact opposite of my current post.



Z

p.s. If you wont take my word for it you can brows NASIOC or rs25.com and search for the tech there. They have come the the same conclusions...actually you can probably go to just about ANY forum dedicated to ANY vehicle and come up with the same results.

[AZEqualizer]

...actually you can probably go to just about ANY forum dedicated to ANY vehicle and come up with the same results.

Yep over and over by tons of experts .... only ones that buy into this are the testimonial people and those with the placebo effect firmly planted in there ....

[RetNav]

http://biotrendz.com/hho/research-development-hho-gas.htm

Unless I read this wrong it does seem to work.

[ziggy951]

Nope you read it right...and they even state down near the bottom the real premise behind these systems...

Quote from your link:

"To best describe how Hydrogen Enhanced Combustion works, we are providing this excerpt from a University Technical Report, written by Mr. George Vosper, P.Eng.;

...a Hydrogen Generating System (HGS) for trucks or cars has been on the market for some time. Mounted on a vehicle, it feeds small amounts of hydrogen and oxygen into the engine’s air intake. Its makers claim savings in fuel, reduced noxious and greenhouse gases and increased power. The auto industry is not devoid of hoaxes and as engineers are sceptics by training, it is no surprise that a few of them say the idea won’t work. Such opinions, from engineers can’t be dismissed without explaining why I think these Hydrogen Generating Systems do work and are not just another hoax. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is a likely source of those doubts. Meaning ...the law -would lead you to believe that it will certainly take more power to produce this hydrogen than can be regained by burning it in the engine. i.e. the resulting energy balance should be negative. If the aim is to create hydrogen by electrolysis to be burned as a fuel, the concept is ridiculous. On the other hand, if hydrogen, shortens the burn time of the main fuel-air mix, putting more pressure on the piston through a longer effective power stroke, and in doing so takes more work out, then this system does make sense."


All that paragraph said is that putting water into an engine increases hp. That is all these systems do. They do NOT create hydrogen and burn it as a fuel and that is what the makers and sellers of these systems claim and it is utter BS. Note the underlined part...that is what they claim. Note the italics part? That is what there systems do NOT do because the hydrogen is NOT used as a fuel. Most of the water remains a liquid. This is how the compression ratio is increased as it cannot be burnt or evaporated completely.

All they do is increase compression ratio within the cylinder a very small amount and decrease cylinder temperatures by a small amount (1-5 degrees), and prevents predetonation in turbo vehicles with high boost and high hp applications. Thats it and thats all. Oh and about the decreased emissions...it comes out the tailpipe still, usually in the water that eventually condensates at the outlet and drips out...The scope usually doesnt measure it because it is no longer in gas form. Its smoke and mirrors.

If the system doesnt do any of the following things, the increases they report just arent possible:

Decrease pulse width of the injector.(This is the only way to get LESS fuel into the cylinder)
Increase timing without over-doing it.
Increase spark duration.
Increase each gears optimal rpm range (longer gears)
Significantly increase compression ratio, without blowing a gasket, seal, or head. Very difficult to do safely with any NA engine without high octane fuel (91+).


I am still laughing at the 125 degree decrease in temp comment.




Z

[ziggy951]

Anyone still not convinced? Just dont like me and dont want to hear my garbldey guk? How about these two links below?

How Stuff Works article debunking this product.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell-difference1.htm


The Myth Busters did a show about the possibility of this product working. Scroll down to episode 53. Notice its not even plausible...its BUSTED!
http://mythbustersresults.com/episode53
Notice also that tehy note a DECREASE in fuel efficiency.

Sorry, but anyone that uses these kits is getting pretty ripped off. Unless you need it to keep intake temps cool, retard timing on a ridiculously high boost vehicle, or just want to carry around an extra 10-50 pounds of water weight around in your vehicle, just dont use one.

If you have one of these systems and you "think" you are getting better gas mileage you might be right....but its not going to be more than 1-5 mpg.

I bet you would get better fuel economy and gas mileage if you increased your exhaust pipes to the best size for your particular vehicle, got a free flow intake with a long and relatively straight intake tube, got a free flow cat (may not apply on some newer vehicles), put phenolic spacers on your intake manifold, and did some serious electronic tuning or had an experienced shop do it for you, used better engine or transmission lubricant, used tires that decrease road friction, or got a more aerodynamic body kit for your vehicle. ANY of these things make more sense for the average person than any type of fuel additive or injection kit.


I think...hope, my work here is done.




Z

:Beer:

[WarpedOne]

Ziggy:

... and found "LESS" of a gain with this system than we found on a simple water injection (spray directly into the intake, post air filter) system on each vehicle ...

Can you please elaborate on water injection systems? Pro's and con's etc?
Thank you in advance! :)

[RetNav]

ziggy951,

The mythbusters episode tried to run the vehicle on hydrogen only and it did not work.

You are citing examples of totally different things than what works for me.

Maybe the laser temp guns was wrong. Make the trip and I will show you the vehicle and you can do the test yourself.

You sit behind the safety and obscurity of your computer and call people you know nothing about names. It tells me a lot about your character.

I don't let people telling me something won't work keep me from accomplishing what I am attempting. I also don't start personal attacks on anyone who happens to disagree even if I think they are an idiot.

[AZEqualizer]

Remember it is OK to attack a idea or topic ....or to have disagreements ..... but we don't condone attacks on other members.

So lets keep this civil, Please.

[ziggy951]

Water injection systems are basically the same setup as whats commonly called a "fogger" system used for nitrus. Basically an injector is inserted into the intake manifold, air filter box, or somewhere in between. Sometimes this type of system is used on an intercooler/aftercooler as well. These systems are mainly used to cool air charge temps in turbo charged racing engines or highly modified turbo engines for street use. If it is an injection kit then it cools the air charge temp, retards timing, and increases the compression ratio of the cylinder. All of this combined means increased hp. Generally these vehicles are not interested in fuel economy though :) Its also a handy way to clean out your engine if you have the appropriate tools and knowhow. Again, water injection should really only be used for racing applications and preferably on turbo charged vehicles as that is where the benifits occur. Last warning. Too much water in any cylinder will DESTROY your engine. An increase in compression ratio of too much will lead to bent valves, busted cylinder walls, bent rods, etc, etc, etc.


As for the Mythbuster episode here is a summary. They tested one of your craptastic devices first.....then used the tank of hydrogen so yeah they DID do what you are doing. But hey its showbusiness so dont believe it if you dont want:
------------------------------------------------
Great Gas Conspiracy

Myth: Automakers and fuel suppliers are in collusion to keep us dependent on expensive gasoline and inefficient cars. There are many devices that one can use to cut your fuel consumption.
They got a carbureted car and a fuel-injected car to test several types of devices. The cars were placed on a dynamometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamometer), which allows the car to drive without moving anywhere.
Test devices and additives:


Fuel line magnets: working on the "principles of hydrodynamics," they are supposed to align the molecules for more efficient consumption.
Acetone additive: supposed to make gasoline burn more efficiently
300mpg 'super' carburetor
Hydrogen fuel cell generator: flammable hydrogen gas produced by electrolysis. Adam labeled it "Gasbuster: Stickin' it to the Man"

They tested each car on the dynamometer at 35mph and 55mph with each 'device.'
Carburetor car:


Baseline: 17mpg at 35mph and 25mpg at 55mph
Magnets: exactly the same as baseline busted
Acetone: 16.7mpg at 35mph and 24mpg at 55mph busted
Super carb: much worse than baseline, 12mpg at 35mph and 17.7mpg at 55mph busted

Fuel-injected car


Baseline: 19mpg at 35mph and 27mpg at 55mph
Magnets: 18mpg at 35mph and 26mpg at 55mph busted
Acetone: 18mpg at 35mph and 26mpg at 55mph busted

Hydrogen fuel cell generator

Hydrogen fuel cell generator: the car started, but it turned out it was due to leftover fuel. They tried again with the residual fuel gone and the car wouldn't even start.
Adam: "My God! It doesn't work! I can't believe it doesn't work. I found it on the Internet, man!"
Jamie rolled a tank of hydrogen gas over and squirted the gas directly into the carburetor. The car started up with the gas, much to the excitement of Jamie and Adam. It was so much fun they tried it again, only to get caught off guard as the gas exploded inside of the carb, ending that particular test.
Cooking oil

Adam picked up some used cooking oil from a restaurant and filtered it to turn it into fuel. They got a diesel Mercedes and drove it around a 2.9 mile course at Alameda designed for constant 35mph driving. With the diesel baseline test they were able to go 8.8 miles on 1 liter (33.3mpg). They then switched to the used cooking oil and ended up getting 30mpg, only 10% less efficient.
They made no modifications to the diesel car and all they did to the cooking oil was filter it.





Mythbusted:none of the devices they tested made the car more fuel efficient. The EPA has tested 104 of these devices, and only 7 showed improvement in fuel efficiency. However, none of these improved efficiency over 6%.





----------------


I did like the cooking oil part of the Mythbusters though. Who cares about fuel economy though, when you can get the oil for FREE and filter it in your garage lol.




Here is another link explaining why these systems DONT work:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/04/why-on-board-hydrogen-generators-wont-boost-your-mileage/

And another:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/12/hho-generation-injection-redux-its-not-a-fuel-cell-fails-in-t/

Notice this part in the article:
All of these potential benefits are unlikely to be realized on any retrofitted engine without significant recalibration and potential mechanical changes. If H2 injection is designed in, the increased knock resistance and faster burn rate could be utilized to achieve some benefits through higher compression ratios, optimized spark and valve timing and fuel management. All of this requires system level changes that are not a part of any of the kits being sold.



Here are some other reviews about other scaming fuel saver products. They test a few of the well known items, Hydrogen injection not included:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1802932.html?page=2


RetNav quote
"You sit behind the safety and obscurity of your computer and call people you know nothing about names. It tells me a lot about your character.

I don't let people telling me something won't work keep me from accomplishing what I am attempting. I also don't start personal attacks on anyone who happens to disagree even if I think they are an idiot."


I dont recall calling you any names. Well I did call you full of it so maybe that counts..guilty as charged.

Obscurity? What like I am oging to tell everyone on the forum my life's story?

Attempting? I thought you had achieved results already? Interesting....

I dont think you are an idiot. I think you have been mislead. Ignorant is a better term because that only means a lack of knowledge. Like I am ignorant of how to bake a cake. And I am ignorant of how people ballance on a unicycle. You are ignorant of the truth of these kits scammers are selling.


I am tiring of this ridiculous conversation. Back your statements up with ANYTHING that proves it...and linking to a site that sells the products wont cut it this time. Actually, nevermind. I have shown my side and have done my own tests. I am convinced already and I think I have posted enough for people to make their own informed opinions about these products.




Z

[longspeer]

My uncle built a hydrogen conversion on his lawnmower by researching the idea without getting a kit. He claimed it gave him better gas mileage and the engine seemed to run smoother. Granted it would be imposable to rate gas mileage on a lawnmower and we are talking about a much smaller engine. He seemed very happy with the results however the engine wore out much quicker. As described in Ziggy's posts it caused damage to the cylinders.
Just giving my 2 cents...

[ziggy951]

Instead of mileage comparison he could do an hours/minutes run per gallon or liter. A moot point though as a damaged engine isnt really worth a bit better fuel economy.



Z

[longspeer]

I agree. He is working on building another since that one just quit this year. So we shal see. I think it is a good idea to research but I don't think the right design has been made yet. Kit or no kit.

[ziggy951]

Its not really the design of the kit that is in question. They work fine. That is, they run electricity, inefficiently by the way, through water and separate hydrogen from that water. Then that hydrogen is injected in one way or another into the combustion chamber with petrol.

The problem is the ability of a standard gas internal combustion engine to withstand the increased compression ratios of water, nitrus, methanol, whatever..for long periods of time. Another part of the equation is that part about thermal effeciency and the conversion from water to hydrogen. Yet another problem is that all of the current electronics on today's vehicles havent a clue what is going on when you inject hydrogen into a cylinder of the engine its supposed to be controling and protecting. It compensates by retarding timing or anything else it can to fix the problem. Technically if hydrogen really made the fuel burn more completely the engine management would inject MORE fuel into the cylinders to achieve..I think its 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. This would not increase gas mileage at all. Its really all basic stuff for most gear heads...let alone engineers and chemists.

To have this work at all there needs to be an engine that is designed for this type of system specifically. And that doesnt really exist yet for a commercial market, and no one is working on making one of them (not talking about the well known Honda, Toyota, Ford etc prototype and testing vehicles that are 10 years off) or a true conversion kit from the after market...they are just changing these "kits" around to see if there is some way it can work with a regular engine. That is the wrong route.

Plus, when an engine is finally developed for hydrogen I doubt they will have the conversion onboard. It will most likely just store the raw hydrogen in a presurized tank and fill up at a station somewhere. Hopefully they will also find a way to effeciently and economically create the hydrogen so it actually makes economic sense.





Z

[AZEqualizer]

This was posted in Autobloggreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/09/ftc-cracks-down-on-hydro-assist-fuel-cell-scam/) and originated from an article in PressOfAtlanticCity.com (http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/106/story/396906.html)

These products (Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell) claim to use "water gas" and "longstanding, proven technologies" to offer "incredible savings" and also promises "less dependence on foreign oil."

Too bad it doesn't work (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/04/why-on-board-hydrogen-generators-wont-boost-your-mileage/). In fact, the FTC's documents claim that there's a net loss of energy when the device is in use. The technology behind these claims is well known, and it supposedly involves extracting hydrogen from distilled water using electricity, among other things. Unfortunately, the laws of physics get in the way (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/12/hho-generation-injection-redux-its-not-a-fuel-cell-fails-in-t/), and the FTC, looking to protect consumers, has taken issue with these claims.

The complaint was filed in U.S. District Court for the District of New Jersey. It also names as a defendant Dennis Lee, chief operating officer of Dutchman Enterprises and president of UCSA. The FTC said Lee is a convicted felon who has been prosecuted in at least eight states in the past for violating consumer protection laws.
The FTC's court papers state that since at least February 2008, Dutchman and UCSA have used magazine and Internet advertisements to mislead potential customers into buying an HAFC kit, based on the false claim that it would increase auto fuel efficiency by 50 percent or more.

[PHEVadvocate]

r:o:f:l:2:2:1 To all of those people that told me it was not a SCAM!


AZEqualizer, darn you beat me to the punch!

[RAN]

I met Dennis Lee years ago. He was doing a "public demonstration" of his free energy machine and other items, including a van that supposedly ran on a tank of water, using electrolysis to extract hydrogen to run on. He let people in the van, where the plexiglass water tank was visible (but the gas tank below was not).

This guy must've been an evangelist in a previous life, and he and Michael Papp must be related somehow lol. This was several years ago, but I remember putting my wallet in my front pocket so no one could steal it, if that tells you anything about my gut feeling about Mr Lee.

[ydeardorff]

Another scam...IMHO

Actually no, Ive built one myself. Im an aircraft mechanic by trade, and used my skills to create my own design.

They do in fact work, depending on the efficiency of the unit, you can get remarkable results, not like running on E for three months or anything, but it does save money.

If you have any questions feel free to ask! Or email me! Just free info, not selling anything!

[AZEqualizer]

The only way that the fuel consumption of the vehicle can be reduced by hydrogen injection is to produce the hydrogen outside of the vehicle and store it on board. You can't use a on-board water system to generate hydrogen - To do this you have to put in 16% more energy than what you get out of it in H2 gas energy and that is if the reaction is 100% efficient. (these aren't stats I pulled out of the air but the physics of electrolysis) But a vehicle that burns hydrogen as a fuel has it's own set of problems to deal with (because of temp differences in the fuel type, compression ratio needed and the list goes on).... especially if it is a engine designed around gasoline as a fuel... it is like someone trying to build a diesel engine from a standard gasoline engine... it just doesn't work well or long... car manufacturers have tried it and failed.

I guess the simplistic analogy would be one can inject NOS into a car for short periods of time to boost horsepower but do it too much and you no longer have a functional engine. A hydrogen engine is possible but it would have to be designed and developed from the ground up. Are engine manufactures looking into this ... sure... will we see it soon ... the magic eight-ball says... doubtful.

All of this has been brought up numerous times by several people in this thread.