Should Political and/or Religious discussions be permitted?

[Derwin]

I noticed some threads turning highly political, and now leaning toward religion. As I'm sure all of you know, these 2 subjects can (and will) get incredibly heated, and COULD cause a rift between members.

We started this club as a way for people that are enthusiastic about Venture Vehicles to join together. We are here united together in fellowship around this company and the incredible product they are trying to come up with.

I realize the thread "Derwins Cigar Lounge" was for people to talk about anything on their minds. But maybe that was a mistake? I don't know. I just don't want us having bad feelings against each other because we don't agree on certain political points or religious points. I want us all to unite around this company, and fellowship around our mutual interests, and not be seperated by other things.

So, instead of making an "executive decision" about this,

I have created a NEW POLL in this thread. It is located at the very top of each page.

Please VOTE IN THIS POLL and let your opinion be heard. If the you, as members, want to continue to allow political and religious debate, than it will be so. If you think that having such debates may cause problems amongst members, and you don't think it is conducive to a creating a good club atmosphere, than we will make that known as well.

IT'S UP TO YOU. Please vote.

Derwin

[danbucks]

I voted NO - in part because I have yet to see on this site, or on the official site any post anywhere in the politics or religion topics that was constructive ... minus a few intentionally funny posts or two. The main purpose of the bulk of these posters is to be a) at best, obstreperous (big word of the day!!!) b) incite (why? because on a topic like abortion for or against - you will not - ever - change someone's mind. certainly not on this forum) - perhaps to get a nice big fat ego boost, who knows.
Some posters who frequently do a) in fact, also post 95% untrue statements - there seems to be a correlation there, which is curious.

That said, I don't believe you can control such a huge topic, Derwin. Politics (more than religion, but sadly, separation of church and state just isn't quite there) goes hand in hand with who and how new vehicles come out. (oil price, kickbacks, etc.)

Perhaps if you had a "Heated" section, you could just move the nasty threads there? =y:

[meckman1]

I'm not big on unnecessary censorship, so I voted yes.

[RAN]

I voted no. Not that it will put and end to them completely, but it will keep them from getting out of hand.

[Baja_Traveler]

I voted no - for the same reasons already given. But - if we do decide to allow it, I'd like to see a specific forum for it, like on my favorite Archery hangout - that way it is easy to avoid.

[wireman]

No for me. Mostly nuff said in earlier posts, except for the politics pertaining to V-vhatever, and we already have Vehicle Politics, Incentives, and Laws.

[TazmanianKoala]

I voted Yes. Just because I do not want to exclude any subject.
But on the other hand: Since I live in Europe, much of any political discussion will get pass me. Therefore I will not take part in any political discussion.

[MikeB]

I think religion really has no place here, and there are plenty of alternative locations for such discussions. I'm happy to debate religion in those locations, but I'd rather not get into that topic here. It's just not relevant.

However, everything on the road is strongly affected by government regulations, at both the state and local level. With a PHEV, we will have to worry about both electrical power generation as well as gasoline supply, both of which are subject to significant influence by governments. In the sense that any government action will always have a political dimension, I think such discussions are entirely relevant.

However, it's possible to restrict such conversations to the relevant aspects, and enforce a level of civility. For example, the thread on the main FTR site about the $7,000 PHEV tax credit had important information for anyone thinking about buying a V1, but also had tons of noise that was nothing but distracting crap or blatant trolling.

I think we should ask our moderators to police any discussion about government policy to focus on the policy itself, and how it directly affects the V1, and make sure political philosophy and muckraking stays somewhere else. And even then, if a directly relevant policy discussion gets too heated, we can lock the thread until tempers cool off.

I also think that we need some tolerance for one-off comments and light banter. It's ok for someone to admit that they might be Catholic or Jewish or atheist or something, as long as it's part of a light discussion and not any sort of preaching. You can suggest that you happen to prefer a given candidate for office, as long as you don't go into details on why the opposition sucks donkey-balls.

[RAN]

Mike... can I expound on why they all suck monkey balls? :-{)]

[rogwild]

Derwin, its YOUR 'cigar room', YOU can 'discuss' or 'limit' anything you decide. Personally I'm not a fan of censorship. I probably won't get into discussions on those topics anyway, but sometimes it is FUN just to watch 'adults' makes A$$es out of themselves.

[beeson]

Derwin, I must apologize. I stepped over the line with some of my comments. I later wished I had not posted that message, but I had already left for work and didn't have access to change it. I don't know what else might have been posted after me, but mine should have been deleted. It did not belong on this forum.

[Derwin]

In the sense that any government action will always have a political dimension, I think such discussions are entirely relevant.

I agree with these sentiments. Converstations about governements involvment in areas that will affect new technology, alternative fuels, and other vehicle related subjects, is something that must be allowed. What I am talking about it PARTISIAN politics. Do you think it is good to allow political debate about which PARTY is better, or what CANDIDATE is better. This is what the poll question is about. NOT politics as it relates to Venture Vehicles and what they are doing. I think this kind of discussion is needed, and is one of the things that makes this forum great.

As far as religion.....That is a VERY hot and PERSONAL subject. I personally do not think it has a place in a forum about Venture Vehicles. But, as I have said, this is up to YOU, the membership.


Derwin, I must apologize. I stepped over the line with some of my comments.

Don't worry about it. All is well in the kingdom!

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

Well I voted no! I have seen just in the past few weeks, things that were said in passing or as a joke with no real substance wound up turning into a full blown debate of Olympic size proportions!!! When It comes to politics, people have started to take it personal! In some respects I feel this is a good thing. People tend to get more involved when they feel personally connected. However, Because people have taken politics personally, whenever a comment is made (joking or not) they take it as a personal insult!
Just last month someone made the comment that Barack Obama was a Muslim terrorist on the official company thread. I attacked the guy for making such a flaming comment knowing full well Obama is a Christian, having been to his former church! Next thing I knew I was in the middle of a full blown attack and forced to defend my political position! Another situation was the Al Gore Sending his son into outer space to save the universe, it was a joke and suddenly people defending their political views! We don't need this in this forum! You all have your political beliefs and I have mine, we can't change that by arguing about them in a forum! 9 times out of 10 it just gets into personal attacks on one politician or another! I say No politics!

[Derwin]

I'm not big on unnecessary censorship, so I voted yes.

We are NOT voting on "unnecessary censorship". We are voting on what we want this forum to be about......what guidlines there should be in these discussions. As I said earlier, this club is about discussing Venture Vehicles, alternative tranportation and technology, and even the politics that come into play with these subjects. I was just thinking that argueing about religion and partisan politics may not fit the mold of why this club exists. BUT EVEN AT THAT, I AM STILL LEAVING IT UP TO THE MEMBERSHIP TO DECIDE.


You all have your political beliefs and I have mine, we can't change that by arguing about them in a forum! 9 times out of 10 it just gets into personal attacks on one politician or another!!

Eactly. Members of this forum come from every political and religious background, and I don't want us being devided over these issues. As I said, I want us to be UNITED in what we agree on and are enthusiastic about.

Derwin

[CelticFlyer]

As surprising as it may sound, I voted NO. I am an advocate of free speech, but I must concur with others who've raised the issue of relevance here. Discussing partisan politics and the role of religion in society will only turn us against one another, and make for some very strained discussions. I'm sure there are other, more appropriate venues for those dialogs. Let's keep the banter on FTRC light!

[Mark Tomlinson]

I won't be voting in this poll because I believe politics plays a major factor in the ability to deliver and drive alternative vehicles. I can't separate the discussion on whether selling CARB credits to pay for continuing R&D from the discussion of who should be our next president. Or whether CAFE standards are too weak or strong from whether the current administration is beholden to the oil industry.

But I do believe discussion of religion has no place here. Sure, expressing ones beliefs is fine in any forum. But I don't believe this is the place to engage in debates about them, and the Internet is full of debaters who will jump at the chance.

That said, we've all kept it civil. Kudos to everyone. I don't see any reason to change. But if you're asking my opinion, then my opinion is "I come here to talk about an alternative mode of transportation. Politics are part of that discussion, my faith is not.".

[Derwin]

Mark,

I agree with you on the politics subject. Discussing the political issues involved in getting these vehicles to market, etc., is absolutely an area open for discussion. WE ARE NOT VOTING ON THAT. We are voting on wether there should be PARTISAN political discussion. In other words.... McCain is the man, or Obama is our Saviour. Republican are evil, or Democrats have ruined this country....etc. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE VOTING ON. Do we want this kind of partisan banter going on between club members?

Now, discussing the political issues involved in alternative fuels, and new technology is something that this club has always been talking about, and we even have a forum dedicated to that. So, with that said, I think you can feel a bit more at ease about voting in this poll!

Derwin

[rogwild]

Derwin; by the wording of the 'poll' and your comments in this thread, it obvious where YOU stand, so just state YOUR policy for discussions in YOUR 'Cigar Room'. Its that simple. After; "Talk about ANYTHING on your mind!", just add "EXCEPT......."!

[Derwin]

Derwin; by the wording of the 'poll' and your comments in this thread, it obvious where YOU stand, so just state YOUR policy for discussions in YOUR 'Cigar Room'. Its that simple.

No. I won't do that. And it does NOT matter where I stand on this. That is why I am opening this up for the members to vote on. I DO NOT WANT TO BE LIKE A DICTATOR AND MAKE THIS EXECUTIVE DECISION.

This club belongs to ALL of the members, and I want THEM to make the decision, regardless of what my personal feelings are in the matter. By the way, how else could I have worded the poll? I think I worded it pretty clearly, and I even stated that "I'm not sure" about what to do. So I guess I am missing your point.

Derwin

[RAN]

Derwin, I think what Rog is saying is much the same as what Mark brought up; you might have worded the poll to make it clear you were talking about partisan politics and not politics as they relate to legislation/regulations that will affect hybrid/EV development.

I took your meaning, but I did have to read between the lines a little :-{)]

[Derwin]

I made the change. The poll now reads PARTISAN politics, instead of just politics.

o:o:p:s12Sorry about that, guys! Sometimes I forget that you guys can't read my mind!

Derwin

[cpaddock]

People of Earth.....I voted yes because I have found these discussions to be very interesting and entertaining, and folks have been able to maintain a decent level
of civility and respect. Heated arguments/debates are a healthy sign that this is still a free country. Providing a forum such as the cigar lounge for commentary about "anything" is a simple solution. Those who do not wish to participate do not have
to go there. I personally find "political correctness" to be far more objectionable than
free speech. We are not just gear heads. Philosophy, religion and politics, which are THE
topics to avoid at a party, are still a large part of who we are. Having a place to express ourselves without fear of being hauled off to some Gulag is a privilage and I think adds to
the richness of our experience here. I feel like I am part of a family of sorts here, and in a family we can let our feelings be known. We can self-censure on the other forums and topics, but i'm in favor of having this place for venting deep thoughts/feelings as well.
Alooooooooha!
Curves ahead!

[rogwild]

No. I won't do that. And it does NOT matter where I stand on this. That is why I am opening this up for the members to vote on. I DO NOT WANT TO BE LIKE A DICTATOR AND MAKE THIS EXECUTIVE DECISION.

This club belongs to ALL of the members, and I want THEM to make the decision, regardless of what my personal feelings are in the matter. By the way, how else could I have worded the poll? I think I worded it pretty clearly, and I even stated that "I'm not sure" about what to do. So I guess I am missing your point.

Derwin

Derwin, again you are missing MY point, yes the FORUM is for ALL members (we already have guidelines that everyone must follow) and if we want to change the 'general guidelines significantly' then we should discuss and vote on it. But "Derwin's Cigar Lounge" is YOUR thread, and as such YOU can determine what subjects YOU want to be allowed to be discussed. Since YOU already stated; "Talk about ANYTHING on your mind!", if YOU want to change that or modify it, DO IT.

Just as if I started a Thread; "Rog's Pit Stop" (Talk about ALL auto racing topics), I could modify it to also include 'motorcycle racing' or limit it to only NASCAR. No need to run a poll, if it is within the general Forum guidelines, there is no need to get permission to modify MY thread. If people want to participate, they will; if not they won't.

[Derwin]

Rog, C'mon, man! Give it a break! Don't you think I understand your point, and that I fully realize that I can simply tell people that these discussions are not allowed? I mean, let's be a bit serious here now.

I think, rog, you are missing MY point. Since we installed vbPortal, people see ALL posts in a chronological order as to when they were posted. Most people don't bother looking at the title of the forum (which is in small print), they usually just look at the title of the thread itself, which could be anything. They could click on that certain post, which takes them to "Derwin's Cigar Lounge" without them knowing it. Then they are suddenly reading things that they may not want to read. Heck, I have been guilty of this myself. Just the other day when Celtic posted something, I asked him not to post that. Then YOU posted the fact that we were in the "cigar lounge", which I did not realize. I just seen that it was the first new post on the "home" page! I really did not know what "forum" I just entered. If this was a problem for ME, than I'm sure it would also be so for others. Before we installed the new software, this was not a problem.

Anyway, I want the members to decide. Is that difficult to understand? I don't know why you are making an issue of this. It's a no-brainer. Let's just let the membership decide what THEY want, and let it be. Actually, I think THIS discussion should be in the private "admin" forum, but I'll leave it here for now.

Derwin

[rogwild]

......
Anyway, I want the members to decide. Is that difficult to understand? I don't know why you are making an issue of this. It's a no-brainer. Let's just let the membership decide what THEY want, and let it be. Actually, I think THIS discussion should be in the private "admin" forum, but I'll leave it here for now.

DerwinIt is difficult to understand, IF the discussion and poll is for what can or cannot be discussed in "Derwin's Cigar Lounge", which started this discussion and subsequent 'poll'. Now on the other hand, if the 'poll' is for a FORUM-WIDE BAN on ALL discussions about religion or politics (other than those that relate to the production of the V~1), then it is entirely appropriate for a discussion and vote. My impression was that it only related to posts in "Derwin's Cigar Lounge" (as my examples indicated). If it is for a Forum-wide policy, than that should be clearly stated, which I apparently 'missed' or mis-understood.

[RAN]

I took the poll to encompass the whole site. I think most others did too. The only time I pay attention to which forum I'm in is when I'm starting a thread. The rest of the time I grab all the articles that have new posts, and usually don't even notice which forum they're from.

[Derwin]

RAN hit the nail on the head. The poll pertains to SITE-WIDE discussion. I thought that was rather obvious. Nowhere in the poll, or in any of my posts, did I state that it was for any PARTICULAR forum. I even placed the poll in the POLL forum, where all general polls are located. If this were pertaining to any particular forum, then the poll would have been placed in that forum, and I would have explained it further.

But what RAN has said nailed what my thoughts are exactly. Thanks.

Derwin

[AKP23]

All I gotta say about politics is... Alaska's Gov is a neighbor of mine, and now she's....

"Movin' on up To the East side To that de-lux Apartment in the Sky!....."

WooHoo!!

cl:ap)1r:o:f:l:2:2:12thumb:up:LOL:

[Thoughtnot]

Heck of a thread to post my first post to. I thought it would likely be more along the lines of "Why I want a V1"!

Derwin, I have to say that I find it admirable that you would leave this issue to the membership. Censorship is not something I support, but a collective agreement as to what is relative and pertinent to parties involved is something I can stand behind.

In that regard, I can see only one involvement as far as religion...I pray that VV comes to market as soon as is practical, that it meets the needs of its consumers (me in particular), and that I am able to get my hands on one as soon as possible! No sarcasm intended.

Politically it's harder to separate discussion as to what is or isn't germain. If it doesn't pertain specifically to a subject directly relatable to the V1, alternative vehicles/energy sources, the thread topic in general, or is purely argumentative, then IMHO it's really nothing more than words to wade through to get to the information that I'm looking for and am interested in reading.

So, for my part I vote no.

I'm definitely not trying to say there is no place for these topics, just that they should be applicable, or contribute insight, to the thread of discussion if they are allowed.

That being said, I CAN'T WAIT to get my hands on one of these! I can't say I've ever been this excited in anticipation of buying a vehicle. It's going to be a long wait!

[RAN]

Thoughtnot, I find your words to be clear, elegant, and well reasoned.

Welcome to the club! Looking forward to more posts from you.

[Derwin]

Derwin, I have to say that I find it admirable that you would leave this issue to the membership. Censorship is not something I support, but a collective agreement as to what is relative and pertinent to parties involved is something I can stand behind.

Thanks for the uplifting comments, and welcome to our motely crew of enthusiasts! wel;co;m;e101))

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

Thoughtnot- Welcome to the club!!!! It is always nice to hear from new members. It is even better when they show appreciation for the efforts Derwin as well as other members have put into this site! Glad to have you aboard!

[RAN]

To put the final nail in this discussion, I think my thread about Al Gore putting his son in the rocketship pretty much shows why political/religious discussions always go bad. That post was a joke. I figured that people would see the humor in it no matter what they thought of Gore, but it brought out many other, darker emotions that I was surprised to see. That thread quickly degenerated into a circle the wagons scenario, and I for one will never post anything similar again, no matter how funny I think it is.
I know nerves are frayed as we tire of playing mushrooms. They're going to get more frayed as time goes on, I suspect. This group has shown, for the most part, an amazing ability to get along with each other; we are a very diverse group, after all.
The poll ends in 24 hours. I applaud the good sense shown in the voting. Those kinds of topics are akin to your wife asking you "Honey, does this dress make me look fat?"
Nobody wants to go there.... :-{)]

[jmeineck]

I beleive everyone should be able to discuss those topics that they are passionate about as long as the threads are listed under the correct section of the forum. No one should be allowed IMHO to take every thread off topic and turn it into a political/religious topic. Derwin kind of set the standard for this forum by creating the cigar lounge where every topic is fair game. This is just my thoughs on the subject:-)

[rogwild]

'jmeineck', those were exactly my views, but it seems that non-Vv (V~1) political discussions and ALL religious topics are 'Verbotten' on the entire Forum, even though the 'Cigar Lounge' still says, "Talk about ANYTHING on your mind!".

[AZEqualizer]

I could really care less what is discussed in the "Cigar Lounge" as long as the topic is plainly stated so that if someone chooses to avoid it they can easily.

As far as the rest of the forums are concerned I would prefer that people act in a civil manner and keep to the points of discussion. Also I would hope that it would be kept to the topics at hand in a manner I would allow my 11yr old to view.

Since the government is going to come into play ... there will be some political points in play but they can be discussed without attacks and should contribute or deliver insight directly to the discussed topic. That said I don't see where religion comes into play in the discussion of vehicles or alternate energy.

[Derwin]

I beleive everyone should be able to discuss those topics that they are passionate about....

We are no longer allowing PARTISAN political discussion on this site. We had this put to a vote by the general membership, and they voted to "NO" to these kinds of discussions. This is now club policy.


...but it seems that non-Vv (V~1) political discussions and ALL religious topics are 'Verbotten' on the entire Forum...

Roger, you are misrepresenting the new policy. Please do not do this. What is now "verbotten" on the entire site is all Partisan political discussion, as well as religious discussion. We have NOT banned non VV political discussion at all.


Since the government is going to come into play ... there will be some political points in play but they can be discussed without attacks and should contribute or deliver insight directly to the discussed topic. That said I don't see where religion comes into play in the discussion of vehicles or alternate energy.

Exactly. Religion has no place in this club. And members are indeed allowed to discuss the politics that are related to alternative energies and anything else related to vehicles......But not in a PARTISAN way. In other words, we are not allowing democrat, republican, or an other party politics to be discussed, or any specific political candidates or politicians.

As we talked about when this poll was still open, this is not the place for these kinds of discussions. There are plenty of other websites to argue over religion and partison politics, and this is not one of them.

This issue is now over. The thread is now closed. (Something I should have done when the poll closed!)