Mazda Also Looks at Rotary for Serial Hybrid

[RAN]

From Treehugger (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/mazda-electric-car-series-hybrid-gm-volt.php):

Rumor: Mazda Preparing Volt Rival Using Rotary Engine (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/mazda-electric-car-series-hybrid-gm-volt.php)

by Michael Graham Richard, Gatineau, Canada (http://www.treehugger.com/authors/index.php?author=mike) on 08.29.08



http://www.treehugger.com/mazda-5-mpv-hdsuf.jpg
Competition for the Volt
British car site Autocar (http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/234607/) claims that some "senior sources" at Mazda revealed that the company is working on a rival to GM's Volt (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/unofficial-gm-volt-chevy-waiting-list.php). The series hybrid would use a gas engine to generate electricity to charge batteries (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/nissan-battery-lab-electric-hybrid-plug-in-cars.php), but it would always be electric motors turning the wheels (unlike the Prius (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/toyota-increase-prius-hybrid-car-production.php)). This could mean that Ford, who owns a significant portion of Mazda, will also use this technology.
Prototype
Apparently, it's not just a paper concept. "Trials are currently underway in Japan, with a prototype that uses a rotary engine [like the Mazda RX-8] to charge the battery pack. The tests are sufficiently advanced that Mazda has a working prototype in a Mazda 5 MPV bodyshell. Company bosses are said to be keen to put this system into production but no firm decisions will be made until the cost of batteries is reduced."

[RAN]

And so another Wankel generator powered hybrid possibility...

Mazda does make smaller rotaries than the one in the RX-8. Set to run at a constant RPM, I'm sure they can be both efficient and reliable, as well as being much smaller and lighter than piston ICE's. This could allow for larger battery packs with greater range that would mean less use of the genset on a daily basis too.

Mazda has kept the rotary engine alive as much out of tradition as anything else. Maybe the rotary finally has found it's niche after all these years. It certainly makes sense for the V-1, with it's limited space.

[MVRacing]

Mazda does make smaller rotaries than the one in the RX-8. Set to run at a constant RPM, I'm sure they can be both efficient and reliable, as well as being much smaller and lighter than piston ICE's. This could allow for larger battery packs with greater range that would mean less use of the genset on a daily basis too.


RAN,
Being a rotary guy, I agree with all you've said except ... I'm not aware of any smaller rotaries Mazda makes - at least not in production anymore. The 12A motor in the RX2, RX3, and early RX7 is a whole 3/4" shorter than the current 13B. Mazda did also have a 10A back in the 60's that was never imported.
They are amazing little motors - I've lifted my 13B race motor out of the car by myself, and there are aftermarket aluminum end & center plates that can reduce the weight by 60%. With only 3 moving parts (5 counting the oil pump & distributor which can be eliminated) they are extremely reliable.
In the past I was involved with a project where we built a one rotor (with 12A parts) that ran very well on propane. I've built over 900 12A, 13B, and 20B (3 rotor) motors and they still amaze me.

[RAN]

MVR, it's my understanding that Mazda has made much smaller rotaries domestically for many years, so they already have them in the parts bin. They might need some tweaking, but surely that's not a problem. Wouldn't it be cool to see something like a 400cc rotary to run a genset?

[WarpedOne]

>> Wouldn't it be cool to see something like a 400cc rotary to run a genset?

V1's mule (sandsled) had one, forgot?

RotaMax (http://www.rotamax.net/)

[RAN]

It certainly makes sense for the V-1, with it's limited space.


>> Wouldn't it be cool to see something like a 400cc rotary to run a genset?

V1's mule (sandsled) had one, forgot?

RotaMax (http://www.rotamax.net/)

Nope. But considering how little we've heard about it lately, I bet some have.

[ziggy951]

Want a small rotary eh? When they overcome the emissions and loads of fuel they produce/require, comparatively speaking, Ill consider them. Here is one for ya though. Smaller than...well its small.


http://www.me.berkeley.edu/mrcl/mini.html

Z

[RAN]

Want a small rotary eh? When they overcome the emissions and loads of fuel they produce/require, comparatively speaking, Ill consider them. Here is one for ya though. Smaller than...well its small.


http://www.me.berkeley.edu/mrcl/mini.html

Z

Hahahahah! We can run our hearing aids with that one. I said we can run our hearing aids with that one! =D

[RAN]

BTW, Ziggy, rotaries don't use that much fuel to run at optimum revs. I had an '83 RX-7 with a 12A engine, and it would get 25MPG in the city on regular gas as long as I didn't make a habit of opening up the secondaries in the 4BBl carb.

[ziggy951]

I guess your idea of good fuel economy and mine are just different then. My boxer four gets an overall mpg of 32 and I think that is just ridiculously low. (2000 Impreza RS coupe) For the tech we have available I suppose that is pretty good for a 4 seat, 4wd, 2.5 liter vehicle but I would love it if it were better. I drive the hell out of it too btw, have the tickets to prove it.

For overall driving conditions rotaries consume far more fuel than a comparable horsepower ICE. If that can be overcome by running the rotary at a specific RPM then great. Obviously it wont be running at different RPMs because of throttle position so if that is the case then great. I just didnt think it mattered because of the inherent differences in the design of a rotary.

The design really does allow incomplete combustion of the fuel that enters. It is just part of the design. There are ways of decreasing the amount of unburnt fuel but I havent read, heard about, or experienced any that compare to a standard piston type. Even the new RX8 is estimated at what? 25 mpg? Yeah its got great hp but if it doesnt solve a problem, its just an interesting tech.

Having said all that, if it is possible to use a small wankel that is highly fuel effecient and has low emissions and can fit into the rear of the V1, and this would be the best solution possible, then hell yeah use it.

I guess it all depends on what kw or kwh we are looking for though. Personally I would want around 130hp or so. Convert that to kwh and smoke it. Compare that number to the "concept" tab on this page - http://flytheroad.com/ We may not get our 100mpg but we would get our 0-60 and 1/4 mi times and top speed.

2thumb:up


Z

[RAN]

100 Mpg and 0-60 in 5 sec and 100+ Mph and $20,000 price is going to be tough to do. Thus far, every one of those has slipped in the wrong direction, some significantly. Of course, since we've still heard no word on the freaking Alpha prototype yet, it's all BS really. The V-1 that comes out at the end of all this (if in fact one ever does) will not be what brought us all here to begin with.

I remind you that Ian figured on having 12 prototypes running by September one year ago. I can understand being a little bit off... but this is ridiculous.

[ziggy951]

No need to remind me. I am well aware of everyone's speculation and the changed(ing) specs of this and may other vehicles that havent made it to market.



Z

[Mark Tomlinson]

Back on topic, Venture chose to put the Rotomax 650 (http://www.rotamax.net/) in their drive train mule for a reason. It could be that they had one available cheap. Or it could be that it's best suited for powering the genset. I'm going to assume because we saw it in the diagrams of the V1 power pod that it's the best choice for the job.

Even more on-topic, if that Mazda makes it to market soon I may have to reassess my next vehicle choice. Well-to-wheel efficiency is highest in a serial hybrid using conventional fuel - even better than a pure electric vehicle running on power generated by current coal-fired power stations (http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/downloads/articles/110155_UPDATED_Full-Cycle_Assessment_of_Alternative_Fuels_for_Light-Duty_Road_Vehicles_in_Australia.pdf - the author now works for Tesla Motors).

If a properly sized and tuned rotary engine can better the well-to-wheel efficiency, than Venture Vehicles made a really good choice.

[RAN]

In the case of the V-1, it may have been one of the few engines that would fit in the power pod. Originally they were planning on using hub motors... now the motor has to live in there somewhere too.

[AZEqualizer]

The bad news is it won't be in production for at least five years.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/Mazda/Concepts/7108855642.jpg
This according to an article on Autocar (http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle.aspx?AR=235308)(uk)

The company is already running 30 hydrogen-powered RX-8s capable of 200km range in conjunction with a Norwegian company, HyNor, as part of its development tests.

[RAN]

I still feel Mazda's barking up the wrong tree going to hydrogen. The same problems with hydrogen transportation and storage still exist.

[westonlgray]

Ran, I would tend to agree with you, but I guess that time will tell. Honda and Mazda have some pretty good engineers, and they (undoubtedly) spend thousand of hours evaluating the relative efficiency of the different options. I still think that fuel cells are the way to go, but maybe batteries will really take off. Either way, the rest of the car should be the same as far as electrical control and drive.

[AZEqualizer]

Actually a safe and efficient method for storing Hydrogen in large quantities may be closer than you think. There is a lot of research going into hydrogen storage in metal hydrides. I saw a show on the Science channel where Iceland in their effort to convert their entire country to geothermal and Hydrogen energy based systems are investing a large effort in metal hydrides experimentation. One researcher was stating how the metal hydrides can safely store large amounts of hydrogen (density is significantly higher than compressed storage)in a metal that actually could be used as structural componets and bumpers in cars.

The IEA Hydrogen Task force is also doing extensive research into hydrogen storage in metal hydrides as well as other altenatives.

IEA Hydrogen Task force Members: Canada, Japan, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Italy, Iceland, UK, USA, France, Denmark, European Comission, Netherlands, Austraila, Germany, Greece, New Zealand & Taiwan.

With this much active research going on I wouldn't use the current limitations of hydrogen storage to rule out hydrogen being used as a energy source for vehicles.

[RAN]

westonlgray, if you haven't read it yet, check out the thread on metal fuel cells (http://flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=378). It's disheartening that they haven't made a serious appearance yet.

[AZEqualizer]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2008/10/081006170531.jpg

ScienceDaily (Oct. 8, 2008) (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081006170531.htm)— Researchers in Greece report design of a new material that almost meets the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) 2010 goals for hydrogen storage and could help eliminate a key roadblock to practical hydrogen-powered vehicles.

In the new study, the researchers used computer modeling to design a unique hydrogen-storage structure consisting of parallel graphene sheets — layers of carbon just one atom thick —stabilized by vertical columns of CNTs. They also added lithium ions to the material's design to enhance its storage capacity.

The scientists' calculations showed that their so-called "pillared graphene" could theoretically store up to 41 grams of hydrogen per liter, almost matching the DOE's target (45 grams of hydrogen per liter) for transportation applications.

"Experimentalists are challenged to fabricate this material and validate its storage capacity," the researchers note.

There are also several more related articles on the Science Daily page.

[AZEqualizer]

Edmunds had more detail on the Mazda Hydrogen Car: (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/10/mazda-says-it-will-begin-mass-producing-hydrogen-rotary-engines-as-early-as-2013.html)

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/assets_c/2008/10/Mazda-RX8-H2%20RE%20900x600-thumb-400x266.jpg

Mazda built a test fleet of more than 30 hydrogen-fueled rotary RX-8 Hydrogen RE (rotary engine) sports cars and drove the heck out of them.

The result of all that testing: The engine "proved ideal for burning hydrogen as the intake area of a rotary engine stays relatively cool in temperature, reducing the tendency for engine backfire -- a significant challenge in conventional engines."


http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/Wankel_Cycle_anim_en.gif

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/assets_c/2008/10/Mazda-H2-Electric-Hybrid-Sy-thumb-350x277.jpg
Encouraged by the success of the RX-8 Hydrogen REs, Mazda continued to work on the dual-fuel system. This past June Tokyo gave Mazda permission to road test a hydrogen-gasoline hybrid minivan fitted with a supplemental electric motor hooked up to lithium-ion batteries.


The 30-kilowatt electric motor, which allows for torque assistance, stop/start functionality and regenerative braking, gives the minivan a 124-mile driving range, or twice that of the RX-8 Hydrogen RE sports car. And, the hybrid system gives the minivan 40 percent more power than the sports car.

[Mark Tomlinson]

... One researcher was stating how the metal hydrides can safely store large amounts of hydrogen (density is significantly higher than compressed storage)in a metal that actually could be used as structural componets and bumpers in cars.
...I've got to laugh at the irony of using your hydrogen storage "tank" as a bumper! Who'd of thunk?!

Anyway, back to the discussion of rotary engines.

[AZEqualizer]

Green Car Advisor (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/10/mazda-rx-8-hydrogen-rotary-engine-validation-vehicle-takes-to-norwegian-roads.html) had this to say:

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/assets_c/2008/10/Mazda-Hydrogen-RE-1200x800-thumb-400x266.jpg

In the first test outside of Japan, initially, only one hydrogen RX-8 validation vehicle will be put in use in Norway, but the number will rise to 30 under commercial lease contracts beginning in fiscal year 2009. The sole hydrogen RX-8 RE (rotary engine) was delivered in advance so that Mazda and HyNor, a national project that aims to establish a clean energy transport system based on hydrogen fuel, can jointly assess its driving performance in Norway.

HyNor includes a hydrogen energy infrastructure -- think filling stations -- under construction along a 360-mile route from Oslo to Stavanger.

[hastingr]

Moller bought the OMC Wankel. They claim 2 HP / lb of engine, a 650CC and a 1300CC engine.

http://www.moller.com/rpperformance.htm

[MVRacing]

Moller bought the OMC Wankel. They claim 2 HP / lb of engine, a 650CC and a 1300CC engine.


Hi hastingr,

Easy to believe for me. I've seen 3hp/lb in normally aspirated rotaries, and close to 5hp/lb in supercharged and turbo'd engines.

[Miracleman89]

I always loved the rotary engines! less parts to break!

[AZEqualizer]

I have a hard time believing in anything associated with Moller due to his past track record ... but he could always prove me wrong.