"Be Patient" Venture Vehicles site will be up soon

[Hardtime11]

I just spoke to the site Admin for FlyTheRoad.com and he is working on it. They were doing some updates and there was a glitch. It is being worked on as I type this. He advised it will be back up today.

I also left a message for Ian letting him know it was down.

[Hardtime11]

Just to further expand upon my previous post.

The admin was very pleasant and already aware of the issues and asked me to inform everyone concerned not to worry the site will be back.

Also when I spoke to VV their doors were still open and they seemed a little bit busy.

I normally sit and wait but everyone seemed really concerned so I thought I would do some further checking.

[waboom]

Thanks for the update HT.

Just imagine what this forum would be like if we had a webcam trained at the VV building. "Holy cow! There's a light on in that office on the 3rd floor that normally isn't on! It must mean something big is coming!":)

[Hardtime11]

Then a lot of us would never get any work done. LOL
I would set my browser capture up for any movement. That would be funny. Maybe later on they will set up a shop cam. I doubt it would be for open viewing.

[Hardtime11]

Main site is back up as of 1335hrs EDT. The forum is not back yet but it is a good sign.

[Hardtime11]

I think it is a reload of the old site to get past the glitch as there are no changes. Still no forum or Blog @1610hrs EDT.

I am just keeping a log going for information.

[mrvail]

HT thanks for the info,
and also for going the extra distance on this issue.


mrvail

[Derwin]

One of the things Ian told me days ago is that they are very "busy", and that things will definately be "changing". I can't go into any further detail about this, but I would suggest that everybody relax. Venture Vehicles is alive and well and moving forward.

The only thing that I am personally a bit upset about is that they seemingly still don't have a competent IT guy working on their site. This would be so very easy for them, but IT SEEMS they have not gone out and found one.

Other than that, I am content with waiting for the official release of information, as well as a new website and forum. But, heck, it sure is tough!

Derwin

[rogwild]

If they have this much trouble with maintaining and changing a simple website, I sure hope they have been working diligently on the 'software/firmware' for their propulsion, control, DVC, instruments, ABS, etc......... or they can add 'another' year to their development schedule.

[Mark Tomlinson]

The only thing that I am personally a bit upset about is that they seemingly still don't have a competent IT guy working on their site. This would be so very easy for them, but IT SEEMS they have not gone out and found one.Agreed. I keep getting the impression that Ian "knew a guy" who "knows computers" who put together the initial site before they knew what they were getting into. Now days, though, the site is (or can be) part of the business model. They need to find someone who's ITIL certified - or at least can spell b-a-c-k o-u-t p-l-a-n.

[MVRacing]

Well, I'm hopefull that they are spending their limited funds on more critical things.
As rogwild said ".... they have been working diligently on the 'software/firmware' for their propulsion, control, DVC, instruments, ABS, etc....."

Hoping for a major update soon v:i:c:t;o;ry1)

[Hardtime11]

Well as of 0700hrs EDT today the Old site is up but there is still no Forum. When I spoke with them the Admin was working with Network Solutions (Their hosting company) to solve the problem. They were doing some updates to the site. Hopefully they find it soon and get it back up.

Hopefully this is still a sign of good things to come. We shall see.

[Skemcin]

I've tried to extend my hand but never get a reply.

[Derwin]

I've tried to extend my hand but never get a reply.

You and me both, brother!

Derwin

[MikeB]

Well, I'm hopefull that they are spending their limited funds on more critical things.
As rogwild said ".... they have been working diligently on the 'software/firmware' for their propulsion, control, DVC, instruments, ABS, etc....."

Yea, I agree. Spending big money for a high-quality web hosting contract would be a waste of money right now, they need a very small web presence at this stage of the game. The cheap guys are the ones that take 3 tries to update a website, and leave you with a day or two of downtime in the process.

In my mind, this doesn't reflect badly on VV, it's actually a sign of prudent money management. I remember the days of the internet dot-com boom, where every startup had to have those nice $800 Aeron desk chairs (and I worked at one of those places for 6 months before it crashed). Oddly enough, expensive desk chairs really didn't do much to create a profitable product.

[Hardtime11]

Oddly enough, expensive desk chairs really didn't do much to create a profitable product.


No they did not! But, they sure were nice chairs. Now you can have the same comfort for about $100-$160 with more adjustments. I personally use an $80 chair with a strap on lumbar. It does not seem to wear out as fast. :-)

Additional note: Going by the area code their admin is also in California but a slightly different location.

[Hardtime11]

LMBO, maybe I should of labeled the thread "Be Patient" Venture Vehicles site will be back (http://www.flytheroadclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7736#post7736), instead of as it is now. The word "soon" might of been a little bit optimistic. I was going off of what I was told. Please do not hold it against me.

[kid_glove]

Attached is a file which will give some network information about flytheroad.com domain, including country, state or province, city, name of the network provider, administrator and technical support contact information.

[rogwild]

Remember, "soon" is a relative term. In Vv and Ian language it has spanned 'MONTHS'.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Yea, I agree. Spending big money for a high-quality web hosting contract would be a waste of money right now, they need a very small web presence at this stage of the game. The cheap guys are the ones that take 3 tries to update a website, and leave you with a day or two of downtime in the process.

Mike, I respectfully disagree. Sure, they can get away with a small web presence. But you can find "cheap guys" who know how to plan an upgrade.

The entire upgrade could have been simulated locally - phpBB and static content on a WAMP stack; no biggie. MySQL could have been backed up and the site zipped. If it wasn't upgraded in an hour, restore. If they are switching to a new site completely, then it could have been entirely operational first. Swing DNS around and post "ipconfig /flushdns" instructions on the old IP.

Edit: Yeah, okay, easy for me to talk but I aint cheap either.

[AZEqualizer]

But it is Network Solutions ... they put the More in Moron. You don't even want me to go into a some of the problems my clients have had with this hosting company.... and some of their (network solutions) alleged shady dealings.bang:h:1

[Hardtime11]

There are a few of us here that could of done it and it is not all that hard as "Mark" says. And having the original backed up for an instant restore is the only way to go.

Always try the new one first in a simulated environment before posting and that would make it stress free during actual upload. There are still times that during an upload an actual hosting company could cause issues. That is a good reason for a complete backup copy of the original site especially when dealing with a corporate/business site. Also, remember that sometimes there is a definite lag between contact of account handlers and Hosting providers which can and normally is the big problem. Especially when they do not have the appropriate switches turned on.

Maybe today they will get their ducks in a row and get them paddling across the big lake again.

[Derwin]

Mark, I'm really glad that you posted what you did. I was tempted to post almost the same thing, but declined to do so.

On another note.... it all depends on what the definition of "cheap" is. I think paying around $1,000 to $1,500 to keep the site updated is not more than they can afford, and sure SHOULDN'T affect the project. And if that amount of money WOULD affect it, then the company is indeed in big trouble, regardless of the website!

I know many professional IT guys that would take that job in a heart beat. Heck, we are not talking "rocket-science" here, folks! And if it is a problem with network solutions, then they could switch servers and/or hosting companies immediately. As many have already said.... they must not really care about the website at all at this point. And the sad thing is, it's the only "real" connection that they have with enthusiasts at this point.

Derwin

[Hardtime11]

But it is Network Solutions ... they put the More in Moron. You don't even want me to go into a some of the problems my clients have had with this hosting company.... and some of their (network solutions) alleged shady dealings.bang:h:1

I have used to use them (Network Solutions) several years ago and I dropped them because of price and what I actually received. They were the original registrar for domain names but things have definitely changed in the past decade. They have been and are still around. That is more than I can say for a lot of hosting/space providers. I have one provider myself that via mergers and acquisitions has changed company names no less than 5 times in a little over a decade. Luckily I keep getting grandfathered is the only reason I am with them still.

[Skemcin]

As a professional web developer for more than 15 years I can honestly say I do not hold anything against VV for what they are trying to do online. I know and have had enough clients that simply have NO idea what or how to ask for things. It simply takes being in touch with the right developer(s) at the right time who can shed just a spec of light on what happens once you put something online, including what will be expected. That obviously didn't happen here (again, no ones fault).

People can compare VV and its online presence to any range of automotive related sites and form all sorts of opinions on what was done right or wrong. If Ian and Howard were all by themselves and only knew a friend of a friend that might be able to help them, then that's what they did to get started.

I suspect the site was initially used as a convenient way to solicit or even justify investment - I do not see it as a consumer site by any means - therein lies the problem. Almost everyone is expecting flytheroad.com to be a marketing tool - which it is not. They made the mistake of giving us that impression when they forced the use of that domain (flytheroad.com) in place of venturevehicles.com. The short of my point is, I'd rather them take down the entire site - put one picture of the car and a date for the "consumer site launch" - nothing more. Then, start all over doing it right. Take down the investor targeted site, VV has the money, no they need (to retain) buyers. Either speak to the public with a consumer site, or take it down until you have one.

What I have my biggest issue with is what I see as a poor means of receiving and responding to feedback. I have NO idea how a couple folks here have the privilege of even being in contact with ANYONE at VV and I would never ask to take advantage of that, but what I can say is that I tried numerous was through online research to get e-mail addresses and phone numbers to get in touch with them - much more than doing a whois search on networksolutions - and I've heard nothing.

Granted, they own me nothing, but at least I get a half-canned reply from my congressman on the issues I've shared with him.

P.S. Never use a domain name registrar for hosting - and visa versa. You wouldn't use a tax attorney for a murder case - they both may be related to the internet and law (respectively) but they have no expertise in the others field.

[Derwin]

I have NO idea how a couple folks here have the privilege of even being in contact with ANYONE at VV...

I can't speak for anyone else, skemcin, but I received Ian's information shortly after starting this club site almost a year ago. I have been in constant communication with Ian by email over the past year in regards to this club and club projects. I NEVER took advantage of using his personal phone number until just recently when everybody was panicking about VV going out of business. I considered this an "emergency" communication, and so I called Ian. We spoke about what is going on, and he "hinted" to me about some things that are coming. But he never went into great DETAIL. Again, this was the ONE AND ONLY time I ever called Ian and spoke with him on the phone. I just don't think it is "right" to abuse the use of his phone number.

As for the website.... I agree with you. They should take it down altogether if they don't know what to do with it, or are unwilling to hire somebody to take care of it.

Derwin

[Skemcin]

...I NEVER took advantage of using his personal phone number until just recently when everybody was panicking about VV going out of business. I considered this an "emergency" communication, and so I called Ian...
You have strong will my friend.
lol

I hope you understand I was not implying that anyone has taken advantage of anything, I was merely saying that I would never ask anyone who has contact priviledges to extend them to me.

Replacing the site with a single splash page actually sends a more positive message of progress then letting a site sit dormant for 3 months while a desperate fan base pollutes its forums with concerns and panic. Imagine if the vehicle was ready next spring, and the site was as it was last week - it would be a HUGE set back to the manufactures credibility. Could you imagine learning of VV for the first time after seeing one on the road or in a commercial and going to that site. I mean no disrespect there, but I'd rather see a still of a VV and a 800 number then all that garbage.
:Beer:

[Derwin]

You have strong will my friend.

Not really. I have just been building a certain amount of "trust" between myself and Ian. Hopefully by NOT abusing the contact information, Ian will be more active in club events. Actually, when I did talk to him, he told me that THIS CLUB WILL BE THE FIRST TO GET THE LONG AWAITED UPDATE. Ian told me that he would CALL ME when he is ready to release it, and will give it to US first, before releasing it to ANYONE else. So, it appears we may have built at least a little trust up to this point.


I hope you understand I was not implying that anyone has taken advantage of anything, I was merely saying that I would never ask anyone who has contact priviledges to extend them to me.

I did not think you were implying anything of the sort. I just wanted to make sure members understand that I have not abused the information.

Derwin

[MikeB]

Edit: Yeah, okay, easy for me to talk but I aint cheap either.

Yea, I'm a web application developer too, and would have done it about the same way. I'm mostly a Java programmer, but my apps have to get deployed to our website about twice a month. But I'm not exactly cheap for my current employer, and a contract task would be more expensive.

Of course, Ian could probably hire me, and a half dozen other highly skilled web admins from this club, for free (part time assistance, of course). All he'd have to offer us would be a good position near the top of the V1 waiting list. :)

[MikeB]

Not really. I have just been building a certain amount of "trust" between myself and Ian. Hopefully by NOT abusing the contact information, Ian will be more active in club events. Actually, when I did talk to him, he told me that THIS CLUB WILL BE THE FIRST TO GET THE LONG AWAITED UPDATE. Ian told me that he would CALL ME when he is ready to release it, and will give it to US first, before releasing it to ANYONE else. So, it appears we may have built at least a little trust up to this point.

Ya know, Derwin, when we were first kicking around the idea of building a new site with vBulletin, it was going to replace the existing forum, not just supplement it. We ended up going with the unofficial fan club, but maybe that's all Venture Vehicles really needs at this point?

Maybe it's time to make that suggestion to Ian again (if he even heard it the first time). Have his website just point to our forum for discussions. If they are trying to upgrade their forums, we've essentially already done the work for him, and he'll have a free team of moderators and admins.

If they are spending time and effort to upgrade the official forums, the best they could do is end up with something close to what we already have here. So why not just use what we have?

[rogwild]

If they are spending time and effort to upgrade the official forums, the best they could do is end up with something close to what we already have here. So why not just use what we have?

Perhaps ultimate 'CONTROL' over the message and content of the site; although they have exercised, very little of that at the 'official company' site over the past year and half.du:n:n:o(

[Hardtime11]

I have NO idea how a couple folks here have the privilege of even being in contact with ANYONE at VV and I would never ask to take advantage of that, but what I can say is that I tried numerous was through online research to get e-mail addresses and phone numbers to get in touch with them - much more than doing a whois search on networksolutions - and I've heard nothing.

If you are referring to me as one of the "couple folks", I did the searches exactly as you mentioned and retained all info. All I did was leave a message with the receptionist and on Ian's voice mail informing them of the site being down. I have never spoken directly Ian. He has not responded to any of my emails for over a year. He used to be very active with the emails and communicated with several people here but there are to many now to even attempt to please everyone.. As far as I know Derwin may be or is the only one that personally talks with or has email contact with him.

Being an admin and a company POC for a very large company in the past I would not contact harass any one because I can sympathize with them from personal experience. But in the same scenario as I am sure you can relate, you would like to know if there were issues with your sites. That is the only reason I called. I know a lot of Admins that do not always look at the actual main page but instead the correctness of the drill down links and references if even that. I know I have done that in the past when I was active with that part of the business.

[Skemcin]

omg guys - I'm not at all implying that any one has and I do not feel my post comes close to even making such an accusation. I'm really just saying that I envy anyone who has the opportunity to actual speak to a live human being that is directly associated with VV. And, that I would never consider trying to weasel my way into getting in contact with a VV person by asking someone who is to "pull a favor".

Why all the defensive responses - its no wonder I've been so reluctant to post on either related board.

[crawling back under my rock now]

[Hardtime11]

No problem "Skemcin". I was posting what I did as a roundabout way to let people know that I am not "privileged" (just self educated) and I do not talk to them on a regular basis (actually it was a first) and recommend to others not to either. That way something would get done and they do not have to hire someone else just for the phone volume. I am enthusiastic about the product but I do not want to turn them off. I only like to help without interfering. :-)

I have made the mistake of educating others in the past on how to find out contact information about sites and businesses and will not do that again within a forum. Luckily others do not keep information logged/stored as I do. ;->

[Miracleman89]

Actually, when I did talk to him, he told me that THIS CLUB WILL BE THE FIRST TO GET THE LONG AWAITED UPDATE. Ian told me that he would CALL ME when he is ready to release it, and will give it to US first, before releasing it to ANYONE else.

Derwin

Now that Is something!!!! I am so stoked that Ian has finally chosen to recognize our club site as a valuable entity to his company and has chosen to announce an update here first!!!!! This is awesome!!!

[Derwin]

Now that Is something!!!! I am so stoked that Ian has finally chosen to recognize our club site as a valuable entity to his company and has chosen to announce an update here first!!!!! This is awesome!!!

Yep. I feel the same way! When Ian told me this, it kind of set me back a bit.....I sure was NOT expecting such a statement from him, and it actually made me speechless for a few seconds!

Anyway, I told Ian, on behalf of ALL the club members, that we are HONORED to be an outlet for Venture Vehicles. Now I look each time my phone rings to see if it is Ian or not........maybe this isn't so great after all! j:o"k'e)

Derwin

[Mark Tomlinson]

Ya know, Derwin, when we were first kicking around the idea of building a new site with vBulletin, it was going to replace the existing forum, not just supplement it. We ended up going with the unofficial fan club, but maybe that's all Venture Vehicles really needs at this point?

Maybe it's time to make that suggestion to Ian again (if he even heard it the first time). Have his website just point to our forum for discussions. If they are trying to upgrade their forums, we've essentially already done the work for him, and he'll have a free team of moderators and admins.

If they are spending time and effort to upgrade the official forums, the best they could do is end up with something close to what we already have here. So why not just use what we have?
In the last post I left on the VV forum I suggested that they should replace the forum with a blog. Then the site went down and I had a moment of regret!

Realistically, though, a forum rarely works for a business as a marketing tool. In fact, I can't think of good example of a company sponsored forum that works to their benefit. Blogs are much more appropriate.

For those unclear on the difference, this is a forum - where anyone can start a discussion about anything. Blogs are regularly posted "updates" where anyone can comment. News sites like AutoBlogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/) are clear examples of blogs.

If Venture Vehicles switched to a blog and posted weekly - even if it's just some low-level schmuck talking about what it's like to work for a start-up - we'd be eating it up. Then the freewheeling discussion and wild speculation would happen here, where Venture could deny any involvement and would not be compelled to respond (not that they do respond, which is part of the problem).

As far as us being the "official" forum of Venture Vehicles, I'm against it. I would encourage them to put a link to "Our Friends at FlyTheRoadClub" on the blog page. But they should never indicate that they officially sanction us in an way. It gives us a lot more liberty and them a lot less liability.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Yea, I'm a web application developer too, and would have done it about the same way. I'm mostly a Java programmer, but my apps have to get deployed to our website about twice a month. But I'm not exactly cheap for my current employer, and a contract task would be more expensive.

Of course, Ian could probably hire me, and a half dozen other highly skilled web admins from this club, for free (part time assistance, of course). All he'd have to offer us would be a good position near the top of the V1 waiting list. :)
As an app guy, then you're probably familiar with CMMI, or at least heard of it. I'm an infrastructure guy, myself, for a company large enough to be interested in CMMI and ITIL.

For those of you left in the dark, ITIL is the IT Infrastructure Library - a set of best practices for deploying, upgrading, and servicing applications and infrastructure (servers, network equipment, middleware, etc). It doesn't take much to get the ITIL Foundations certification, so I would advise VV to look for it when considering a new web design and hosting company.

They are looking for a new web design and hosting company, aren't they? They better be.

[rogwild]

If Venture Vehicles switched to a blog and posted weekly - - we'd be eating it up.

Probably even if it was only EVERY MONTH! But they HAVEN"T and probably WON"T.

[RAN]

I think they took it down, and all things considered, they should have. As you said, all it had become was a litany of broken promises and missed deadlines. Not something you want new potential customers to see.

[rogwild]

If that is true, its just another 'strike' against Vv, for not having the courage to just come out and say so. Lets hope that they are just 'incompetent' and not 'cowards' also. I guess we will know 'for sure', when the "Blog & Forum" button disappears from the homepage.

[Derwin]

I just spoke to the site Admin for FlyTheRoad.com and he is working on it...

Ht..... When you spoke with the admin of the company site, did he tell you that the FORUM itself would be back up specifically, or did he just say the "site" in general?

When I spoke to Ian, he mentioned a few things to me, and I ASSUMED one of those things was pertaining to the new site that I was first told about by Rick Balsiger many months ago. I definatily could have MISINTERPRETED what was said, and added way to much into it. So, for right now anyway, I am wondering if the company forum will EVER get back up. I mean, c'mon, this is not complicated, and it certainly would/should not take this long to get back up.

Anyway, I was just wondering if the guy you spoke with was specific. And, NO, I am NOT going to bother Ian about this with a phone call. I will just anxiously wait for the things he already told me!

Derwin

[Mark Tomlinson]

If a new forum and/or blog is in the works, then it's highly possible they made the call not to restore the old forum and just proceed ahead with a new one. If they botched the old site bad enough, it may be possible that they are debating moving the registered users over to a new site (difficult if the site is down) versus having us re-register.

A lot could be going on that we don't know about. The admin might have said, "screw it, I don't get paid enough" and moved on to other priorities. Or VV might have higher priorities and are not giving the admin direction. Or the admin (with all best intention) is trying to dig himself out of a hole while telling VV it's all under control.

If anyone from VV is reading this thread, at least provide an Out of Order page with some indication that you are aware of the issue and working on it - even if you aren't.

[Miracleman89]

Hey, personally I think they should at least swing by here and post something in the area specifically designed for them and them only, letting us know they they are aware of the situation and it is being worked on!

[Hardtime11]

Ht..... When you spoke with the admin of the company site, did he tell you that the FORUM itself would be back up specifically, or did he just say the "site" in general?
Derwin

He said that they were updating and as well as compressing the site and they were working with Network Solutions to resolve the issue that occurred during the upload.

So as far as what they actually did to the site is unclear but just to recompress or update a site with a new sticky or something they could of remote admin/FTP it and take care of it. A website with minor updates as a new post/sticky is nothing but text and can be remoted. The only reason actually needed to upload a site is if there were some major changes as in structure or actual software used. That is if they know what they are doing.

Now there are some (beginners) that actually pull entire sites down (file structure and all) and then move it back up. That is not a good idea especially if they do not use a environment such as the real location using the same directories and end locations.

I have seen people using a GUI type of software and when they uploaded using it they had all links using a structure relating to their actual harddrive via explorer (ex: C:\html\pictures or C:\cgi-bin). This will not work using any type of virtual or host server setup. There is no way of telling what happened.

[Hardtime11]

There is no telling what happened and I was not going to drill him as he was waiting for another call from NetworkSolutions.

I can tell you that I have used other hosters back when FrontPage and CGI was just becoming popular. I uploaded a simple site that I had done totally in notepad with some minor java/cgi (a simple counter) in it and they had turned on the FrontPage extensions but their scripting (not mine) had blown all my extensions going for the FrontPage Extensions. It took a while to find what happened and only did so by me sucking the site back down into an empty drive and I noticed the changes. All I can say is that things happen and it can happen to anyone. You know the old saying, "When you least expect it, expect it".

I have in my earlier years reviewed some site development software and forgot switches within the software and messed up the structure flow. I fixed it and easily, but again I was reviewing the new (at that time) software. Most of the time it was fixed while still in a virtual type of setup.

I do not claim to be a pro at this by any means and have taught myself a lot by reverse engineering. I am sure the guys that do this for a living now know a lot of the intricacies and could shed some light on some other possibilities. The thing is if you are messing with it, "Back it up first!"

[rogwild]

Hey, personally I think they should at least swing by here and post something in the area specifically designed for them and them only, letting us know they they are aware of the situation and it is being worked on!


Mark Tomlinson="If anyone from VV is reading this thread, at least provide an Out of Order page with some indication that you are aware of the issue and working on it - even if you aren't."

Just another indication of what Vv 'actually' thinks of their devoted and enthusiastic supporters. NOT giving away any 'trade secrets' or 'competitive edge', just taking a couple MINUTES to 'inform' us is NOT important, nor does it seem that meeting their own 'self-imposed' milestones. Is anyone at the helm, or understand ANYTHING about PR?

[denisg]

Boy am I glad that I'm not computer savey. You guys are driving yourselves crazy about the forum being down. I would like some updates too,but all we can do is wait and see what happens.
As of 6:30 PM 9-6-08 it is still down.
Everyone have a good weekend and watch some football.Maybe we will hear something on monday.

[RichDC]

Pure speculation on my part here, but with no official news from VV, that's really all there is to do, isn't there?

Anyhoo, I think that the fact that the forum has not been up for almost a week now, combined with Derwin's supertopsecretinsidercrypticinfo (I think he may have wet himself) is a good indication that something is definitely on the horizon. Of course the "horizon" may appear different to everyone, and Ian certainly seems to have a much different sense of time and space than the rest of us. I still think that the lockdown on information is a direct result of the X Prize competition, and the stage of development that they are at. I'm hoping that we're about to turn the corner and start getting some good news about the first test vehicles, systems, etc. Perhaps not in the detail we'd all like, but hopefully some actual specifics and not just promises.

That said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if old forum isn't being sanitized or scrapped altogether. That's sure to piss off a lot of folks who have been posting since the beginning, but it makes sense. Think about it. Why would a company who's coming out with a bold new product and entering a multi-million dollar competition want to have a forum up that describes every iteration of the product and has been dominated by complaints of broken promises and lack of information since they took the project behind closed doors? Not exactly what you want the general public to be seeing once you've started to become viable and your website is actually talking about a product that is getting ready to come to market. It just makes sense. So don't be surprised if the old forum doesn't itself get turned into a hybrid, or get phased out like the ICE.

Just my thoughts, your mileage will certainly vary.

Curves ahead!

[ziggy951]

Just an FYI there was a supposed large scale hack of DNS servers of a certain type that took place last week(ish) that was aimed only at sites that have material related to "flying, airplanes, aerospace" topics. It redirected visitors to those sites to a radical Muslim site. It only happened to relatively non-secure sites and no major sites had any problems from the report, mostly personal pages and such. I dont have a link as I heard it on the radio. Just figured this could be related.du:n:n:o(



Z

[rogwild]

I still think that the lockdown on information is a direct result of the X Prize competition, and the stage of development that they are at.

Perhaps you could expound upon why you 'think' this. I see no real 'benefit' or 'threat' to the other 60+ competitors (many of which already have operational vehicles) whether Vv says that they have a running 'prototype' or not. Most teams are already doing all they can to speed along THEIR vehicles, and I doubt if they think ONE of the other teams, Vv, doesn't have theirs running yet, that they will 'slack off' their efforts. In fact, if the current 'revised' projections of MPG are correct, Vv will not even 'qualify' for the RACE, if they can't at least demonstrate 100MPGe!

At this stage, Vv needs to concentrate on an operational 'prototype' and NOT a Race/Prize, that they 'may' not even qualify to enter!

[cobraphx]

At this stage, Vv needs to concentrate on an operational 'prototype' and NOT a Race/Prize, that they 'may' not even qualify to enter!

I really like the way you are thinking Rog. They should be concentrating on the prototypes and not on the Forum as well. I'd argue that the X-Prize competition will do far more for the company over the next year than the forum. Now in the past, the forum was a valuable tool, we got a lot of our ideas heard, and we saw things change in the design as VV digested our feedback. But the point has passed where they will be looking to incorporate new ideas into the initial design.

Here's a great example of a company partnering with an "unofficial forum", and one of the best examples I've seen on the web. The company is http://factoryfive.com/ and the unofficial forum is http://ffcobra.com/. There is a great synergy between the company owners and the forum, as well as participation both ways. If VV and FlyTheRoadClub can build the same success, I think it's the best of both worlds. It keeps the forum objective, and take the load off of the company to maintain it. Also absolves them from the information it contains since it's unofficial.

Just my $.02

[Derwin]

I don't know.... I guess I am seeing this from another point of view. In my opinion, I think the forum served a great purpose as long as they were giving updates. It was a strong way the company garnered support, and even input in what they were doing. Actually, the company forum is the thing that STIRRED-UP my excitement about Venture Vehicles, and caused me to start this club.

Needless to say, I think the company forum was a very valuable asset to Venture Vehicles, and should return. But, as many have said over the past year+, they should make changes to it. AND, they should make a point of posting SOMETHING on a regular basis to keep the excitement going. This just makes good business sense in my opinion.

For those that say that they "would rather see them concentrate on getting the vehicle up and running, rather than on a forum"..... I think this is a false choice. This is not an "either/or" scenario. Keeping a forum up, and then making weekly, or even monthly, updates should not take away from building the prototype. I have said this over and over in the past, but I will repeat it again..... It is not complicated! And it certainly does not take but 4 or 5 minutes to post a simple update. This is 4 or 5 minutes that Ian or even some company secretary could take in tending to the forum. It does not need to take away from the project one bit. Heck, they would be spending the 4 or 5 minutes just sitting around, why not use it to give an update?

And.... If you think an "update" would reveal company secrets, and thus jeopardize the project....Well, this is NOT what most are talking about. They could simply post GENERAL statement about the progress, and other such things that would be of absolutely no use to any competitors.

So, NO, I do NOT believe that a forum run by Venture Vehicles would take away from the project at all. I think it would ADD to the future customer base, and continue to generate excitement (as it did with me!) amongst all Venture Vehicle enthusiasts.

I should add that I would be all for Venture Vehicles using THIS CLUB as it's outlet for information. Heck, we were open to this at the very inception of the club, and even created a VENTURE VEHICLE forum where ONLY officials at the company could post. Here is the link...

http://www.flytheroadclub.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36

As you can see, there has NEVER been a thread created, or a post of any kind from the company. Many new members may not know this, but I contacted Ian long ago about using this club site to release information, and I even offered to give him sole use of the above mentioned forum, but he never took me up on it (until recently!).

But, then again, I am not all caught-up in the frenzy. I really do not care if they get their forum back up or not. I'm not even concerned about them giving any updates, either. The company will get this vehicle up and running sooner or later. I'm just incredibly happy that we have been a part of this thing since the beginning!

That's just my opinion, though, and I realize others may disagree.

Derwin

[Hardtime11]

Just an FYI there was a supposed large scale hack of DNS servers of a certain type that took place last week(ish) that was aimed only at sites that have material related to "flying, airplanes, aerospace" topics. It redirected visitors to those sites to a radical Muslim site. It only happened to relatively non-secure sites and no major sites had any problems from the report, mostly personal pages and such. I dont have a link as I heard it on the radio. Just figured this could be related.du:n:n:o(
Z

Nah, I do not think so since most of the computer savvy here also used the IP's to double check their feed. DNS (http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci213908,00.html) (Domain Naming System (http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci213908,00.html)) basically relates the URL (http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci213251,00.html) (Uniform Resource Locator (http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci213251,00.html)) to an IP address (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_address) for the most part (To keep it simple). The first sign of trouble with a web sight a lot of experienced people will quickly post to their host file (if they had not yet) the actual IP. It is sort of like making a personal DNS table. This gets rid of a lot of rerouting or improper page pulls. I do not recommend this to someone that does not know what they are doing.

[CelticFlyer]

I really do not care if they get their forum back up or not. I'm not even concerned about them giving any updates, either.

That's easy for you to say! None of us have had the benefit of having a private pow-wow with Ian. bang:h:1

You can't really blame the rest of us for having a crisis of confidence.

[Hardtime11]

having a crisis of confidence.

That is a good way to put it. I believe most will agree with you on that.

I am still a believer in the VV project but it is indeed that until otherwise informed periodically with progress. I know I am no one and have no monies involved yet but fully do intend on purchasing one as soon as possible.

[RichDC]

Perhaps you could expound upon why you 'think' this. I see no real 'benefit' or 'threat' to the other 60+ competitors (many of which already have operational vehicles) whether Vv says that they have a running 'prototype' or not. Most teams are already doing all they can to speed along THEIR vehicles, and I doubt if they think ONE of the other teams, Vv, doesn't have theirs running yet, that they will 'slack off' their efforts. In fact, if the current 'revised' projections of MPG are correct, Vv will not even 'qualify' for the RACE, if they can't at least demonstrate 100MPGe!

At this stage, Vv needs to concentrate on an operational 'prototype' and NOT a Race/Prize, that they 'may' not even qualify to enter!


Like I said awhile back, I think the time line for market release has been changed due to the competition, and as a result, the project has shifted from an automotive start-up with an open door to community input and participation, to one of Top Secret development of a vehicle that can win the alternative prize. Remember, this isn't just a competition for a one-off prototype. The winner has to demonstrate not only a winning vehicle, but a solid business/production plan as well. All of which Venture was already working on when they got their initial funding. The additional publicity for having a successful model compete will be invaluable and would likely generate additional funding and public interest. And the prize money sure would come in handy setting up dealerships.

With all that on the line, it only makes sense that Venture would want to turn off the information spigot and try to keep their prototype development under wraps till the race next spring. There's simply no reason to lay all your cards ion the table for all to see till the time is right. And we're assuming they haven't made some changes to their most recent designs that have not been discussed previously on the forums. They have $10,000,000 reasons to keep their competition in the dark about their status and accomplishments at this point. Oh and FYI, I looked at the other top competitors for the Prize, and NONE of them have a public forum on their company websites. It seems that Venture is just tightening things up for the competition, and by spring we should see one of these actually flying the road trying to qualify.

[rogwild]

Like I said awhile back, I think the time line for market release has been changed due to the competition, and as a result, the project has shifted from an automotive start-up with an open door to community input and participation, to one of Top Secret development of a vehicle that can win the alternative prize. Remember, this isn't just a competition for a one-off prototype. The winner has to demonstrate not only a winning vehicle, but a solid business/production plan as well. All of which Venture was already working on when they got their initial funding. The additional publicity for having a successful model compete will be invaluable and would likely generate additional funding and public interest. And the prize money sure would come in handy setting up dealerships.

With all that on the line, it only makes sense that Venture would want to turn off the information spigot and try to keep their prototype development under wraps till the race next spring. There's simply no reason to lay all your cards ion the table for all to see till the time is right. And we're assuming they haven't made some changes to their most recent designs that have not been discussed previously on the forums. They have $10,000,000 reasons to keep their competition in the dark about their status and accomplishments at this point. Oh and FYI, I looked at the other top competitors for the Prize, and NONE of them have a public forum on their company websites. It seems that Venture is just tightening things up for the competition, and by spring we should see one of these actually flying the road trying to qualify.

Well you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions, but Vv was very 'reluctant' and extremely late getting on the Auto X-Prize 'bandwagon', even after many forum members were touting its advantages in visibility, and 'free' publicity to Ian for more than 1/2 year before they finally entered.
Also the First Stage of the Race will begin in NYC next FALL (I believe in Sept); a long time for an 'information blackout'. And the 'Award' for the Alternate Class is 1/4 of the 'purse' or 2.5 mil. Not 'chump change' but not $10,000,000 by a long shot. Vv's primary concern is probably 'continued funding', since their initial Series 'A', of $6 mil (obtained last Aug) was only to carry them through 'Prototype Development'. If they want to attract investors, they should be SHOUTING their accomplishments, or they will run out of money before they even have a vehicle to ENTER in the race.

The 'Secrecy' makes no sense unless they have NO GOOD NEWS to release. They will need much more than the $2.5 mil from the X-Prize (not a sure thing) to continue development, and need it much sooner than the finish of the X Prize (sometime around the late spring/summer of 2010). So they need INVESTORS now, which you don't obtain by NOT TELLING them of your accomplishments. And I doubt that the current investors will be eager to shovel more money in, if Vv FAILS to get a 'Running Prototype' with the Series "A" funding.

As for 'Secrecy' from other X-Prize competitors, the simple fact that Vv DOES or DOES NOT have an entry, will have NO EFFECT on their preparation! They are in it to build the best vehicle they can, NOT just beat Vv's entry (if they eventually have one). Unless Vv divulges detailed construction, and test track data, there will be little or no benefit to other competitors from 'general' press releases to the forum or public.

Please tell me how you believe the disclosure that Vv has demonstrated a 'running prototype', will HURT Vv and BENEFIT their competition. I see it as just the opposite; that 'NEWS' will get them much needed publicity to attract investors that will allow them to accelerate their development, and perhaps even have an entry ready in time for the Auto X-Prize, by next year.

[waboom]

I really do not care if they get their forum back up or not.
<...>
That's just my opinion, though, and I realize others may disagree.


Respectfully Derwin, I'm one that disagrees with you.

When I first discovered the Venture One 6 months ago, I was excited about the possibilities of the vehicle. It wasn't until I visited the forum part of the site, however, that I could sense the shared excitement of others about the V1.

At first it was difficult to wade through all the postings on the site - I think it took several weeks before my mental filter learned which 93% of the posts I could ignore - but it was those 7% of the gems, where you had people discussing the instrumentation, battery tech, number of doors, and any number of other technical and social issues concerning the V1 being posted. Also, it gave me a sense of history, where I could see the various updates and evolution in design that the V1 has undergone. If that didn't exist, or if at least some form of it doesn't come over to whatever new forum VV may or may not be working on, I feel it would be a disservice to future enthusiasts who visit the flytheroad.com site.

Most importantly, though, is that I wouldn't have found out about the FTRC site without the forums!

[cobraphx]

For those that say that they "would rather see them concentrate on getting the vehicle up and running, rather than on a forum"..... I think this is a false choice. This is not an "either/or" scenario. Keeping a forum up, and then making weekly, or even monthly, updates should not take away from building the prototype. I have said this over and over in the past, but I will repeat it again..... It is not complicated! And it certainly does not take but 4 or 5 minutes to post a simple update. This is 4 or 5 minutes that Ian or even some company secretary could take in tending to the forum. It does not need to take away from the project one bit. Heck, they would be spending the 4 or 5 minutes just sitting around, why not use it to give an update?

Derwin

Derwin, I agree that it's pretty easy if you do it for a living. Or not too hard if it's a hobby you are passionate about. But if you are just a casual person trying to keep up a quality website, manage users, moderate forums, and post updates, that's a tall order if it is something you are trying to do in addition to your regular job. My guess is that no-one at VV has a lot of leisure time at work to take on other responsibilities.

So, if a company like VV has to choose between a full time web master to manage their forum and a full time software engineer to do vehicle systems integration, I'd hope they hire the software engineer and keep the web presence simple. I know some people say "look, plenty of people will do this as a hobby for them". But I'd say it's a bad idea to have an official company website or forum run by someone not on your payroll, or at the very least under contract. Not a good business practice in my experience.

As someone else mentioned, I think a Blog like the one Tesla has been running is much more valuable to VV than the forum has become of late. But, just like waiting for the V1, waiting to see what direction Ian and Team take for the web presence is interesting in itself.

[meckman1]

The button on their website now reads "blog and forums". Is this a sign of things to come?

[Derwin]

So, if a company like VV has to choose between a full time web master to manage their forum and a full time software engineer to do vehicle systems integration, I'd hope they hire the software engineer and keep the web presence simple..

Well, again, I just don't agree with the choice that you are presenting. As I said, they could have somebody already on the payroll do this without a problem....even a secretary sitting at her desk could spend 5 or 10 minutes MAXIMUM per week, and get the job done. Do you see how easy it was for YOU to post to this forum? It would be just that easy for a secretary to post something. You don't need a software engineer, or ANY other professional doing it. Anybody who can type is capable.


Respectfully Derwin, I'm one that disagrees with you.

When I first discovered the Venture One 6 months ago, I was excited about the possibilities of the vehicle. It wasn't until I visited the forum part of the site, however, that I could sense the shared excitement of others about the V1.

I think you need to go back and READ MY ENTIRE POST. You will find out that you really DON'T disagree with me at all. What you did is pick out one of the last sentences in my post, without mentioning the context. Here is SOME of what I said previous to the sentence you quoted:


In my opinion, I think the forum served a great purpose as long as they were giving updates. It was a strong way the company garnered support, and even input in what they were doing. Actually, the company forum is the thing that STIRRED-UP my excitement about Venture Vehicles, and caused me to start this club.

Needless to say, I think the company forum was a very valuable asset to Venture Vehicles, and should return.

If you go on and read further in that post, you will see that I am arguing for the RETURN of the company forum, NOT against it. After arguing for Venture Vehicles to BRING BACK the company forum, I then added at the very end that it doesn't really matter to me. If they bring it back, that would be GREAT! But my enthusiasm for Venture Vehicle will not falter simply because they choose not to put the forum back up. But SHOULD they put it up? As I alreadY stated in my last post.......YES!

Derwin

[MikeB]

The button on their website now reads "blog and forums". Is this a sign of things to come?

Nope, it's just a sign of the past. There used to be a blog as well as the forums, the blog had about 5 posts initially. Ian pretty quickly abandoned the blog and posted exclusively in the forums. They might be thinking about bringing the blog back, or it might just be an old backup of the website HTML they restored.

[RAN]

Just because they don't have time to do all of that, doesn't mean they cannot post updates. That's simply an excuse.

Yup. No reason at all not to brag about the Alpha prototype... unless it blew up (I know.. caught fire - dramatic license :-).

The media appearances have dried up too... and we know what an attention hound Ian is.

These are not confidence-inspiring developments.

[Hardtime11]

As MikeB put it they/Ian used to use the blog which was located at: http://flytheroad.com/blog (http://flytheroad.com/blog/). Which was actually a parent address to the Forums located at; http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/. It was actually still there and you just had to strip the "forums/" out of the URL address to get back to them. There were some good links to some stuff in the past. But since the site has been down it has also been missing with the Forums.

[RichDC]

Well you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions, but Vv was very 'reluctant' and extremely late getting on the Auto X-Prize 'bandwagon', even after many forum members were touting its advantages in visibility, and 'free' publicity to Ian for more than 1/2 year before they finally entered.
Also the First Stage of the Race will begin in NYC next FALL (I believe in Sept); a long time for an 'information blackout'. And the 'Award' for the Alternate Class is 1/4 of the 'purse' or 2.5 mil. Not 'chump change' but not $10,000,000 by a long shot. Vv's primary concern is probably 'continued funding', since their initial Series 'A', of $6 mil (obtained last Aug) was only to carry them through 'Prototype Development'. If they want to attract investors, they should be SHOUTING their accomplishments, or they will run out of money before they even have a vehicle to ENTER in the race.

The 'Secrecy' makes no sense unless they have NO GOOD NEWS to release. They will need much more than the $2.5 mil from the X-Prize (not a sure thing) to continue development, and need it much sooner than the finish of the X Prize (sometime around the late spring/summer of 2010). So they need INVESTORS now, which you don't obtain by NOT TELLING them of your accomplishments. And I doubt that the current investors will be eager to shovel more money in, if Vv FAILS to get a 'Running Prototype' with the Series "A" funding.

As for 'Secrecy' from other X-Prize competitors, the simple fact that Vv DOES or DOES NOT have an entry, will have NO EFFECT on their preparation! They are in it to build the best vehicle they can, NOT just beat Vv's entry (if they eventually have one). Unless Vv divulges detailed construction, and test track data, there will be little or no benefit to other competitors from 'general' press releases to the forum or public.

Please tell me how you believe the disclosure that Vv has demonstrated a 'running prototype', will HURT Vv and BENEFIT their competition. I see it as just the opposite; that 'NEWS' will get them much needed publicity to attract investors that will allow them to accelerate their development, and perhaps even have an entry ready in time for the Auto X-Prize, by next year.


rogwild

I though I laid out a pretty good case for why I thought VV had cut back on the information stream. You're right on two counts though; Looks like the first qualifying stage is scheduled for the fall and not the spring, and the alternative share of the purse is 2.5 million. As for the rest, well, your certainly entitled to your own opinions and speculation as well.

Interesting though, do you honestly think that serious big bucks investors are lurking on the web waiting for updates from Ian on how things are progressing before they make a decision to invest? You don't think that someone with money to invest in such a project would understand the need for secrecy at this stage of development? Wouldn't it seem reasonable that an invesotor would be in touch with someone from VV directly, say Howard perhaps, get the latest info on what the business model was, how development was going, timelines, costs, marketing, etc.? Or would they just send a check to a PO box and hope for the best. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that VV would probably do a fair amount of due diligence on a potential investor before showing them all their cards, just as the investor would do their own investigation before writing a check.

Oh, and out of curiosity, how exactly do you know that there is not a running prototype? Just because VV has not seen fit to let us all know about it, doesn't mean that they have not reached that milestone.

[waboom]

I think you need to go back and READ MY ENTIRE POST. You will find out that you really DON'T disagree with me at all. What you did is pick out one of the last sentences in my post, without mentioning the context.



If you go on and read further in that post, you will see that I am arguing for the RETURN of the company forum, NOT against it. After arguing for Venture Vehicles to BRING BACK the company forum, I then added at the very end that it doesn't really matter to me. If they bring it back, that would be GREAT! But my enthusiasm for Venture Vehicle will not falter simply because they choose not to put the forum back up. But SHOULD they put it up? As I alreadY stated in my last post.......YES!

Derwin

Derwin,

Yep, you're right. I went back and re-read your post, and your summary is correct, so I guess we don't disagree. Because you had the "don't care" statement at the end, that was what stuck in my mind when I was crafting my reply.

My main point is that when I came on board, the web site got me excited about the V1, but not excited enough that would keep me engrossed for a long time in following the vehicle's progress. The forum, with it's 1+ years of postings, kept me around for quite a while and cemented my interest in following the vehicle as closely as I could. Even in its currently lousy state, any newcomer that's interested in the V1 would find it enticing to read all this history about the project. Hey, if it manages to bring in another person like me (only more personable, taller, with more hair, and better typing skills), I'd say keep the forum up!

So yes - you were right and I was wrong in my interpretation of your post. Sorry.

[cobraphx]

Really though, the success of the V1 in the market is not going to be determined by how often updates are posted on the forum/website. If the V1 sucks when it is ready for production, no amount of postings on a website will make it successful. On the other hand, if it is a great vehicle bringing a new experience to the commuting, with the upside of being exceptionally green... it will be a success without a forum at all.

If it does well in the X-Prize (and by well, I mean get camera time), and is a quality vehicle when it rolls off the assembly line, it will sell like hotcakes without a forum at all. The Edsel wouldn't have been a success if Ford had had a forum (even with updates) once the design was set. Before the design was set, a forum might have saved the Edsel.

I enjoy the VV forum, I'm not saying that I WANT to see it go away. But I can understand why the forum is being worked on. The forum in it's last incarnation isn't something you want representing your company. It was unmoderated for one thing, didn't have search capability, had degraded into a whole bunch of posts wildly speculating and whining about updates. Without a moderator, the forum over the last couple months was probably more harm than good to the company as a whole. And yes, VV was culpable in allowing that happening.

But if Ian and company don't share any info until the V1 rolls of the assembly line won't affect my decision to buy one or not. If the forum is gone and doesn't come back, I'll still buy a V1 if it is what I expect it to be. If it sucks, it won't matter how many updates have been posted, or how many times I can post in the forums. I'm not buying the info posted in the forums, but I will be looking at buying a V1 for my garage.

[cobraphx]

So, if a company like VV has to choose between a full time web master to manage their forum and a full time software engineer to do vehicle systems integration, I'd hope they hire the software engineer and keep the web presence simple..Well, again, I just don't agree with the choice that you are presenting. As I said, they could have somebody already on the payroll do this without a problem....even a secretary sitting at her desk could spend 5 or 10 minutes MAXIMUM per week, and get the job done. Do you see how easy it was for YOU to post to this forum? It would be just that easy for a secretary to post something. You don't need a software engineer, or ANY other professional doing it. Anybody who can type is capable.

Derwin
Notice I said "manage the forum", I'm pretty sure managing this forum takes you more than 5 or 10 minutes a week, and any old secretary with a few minutes free time a week can't do it. I agree that an update can only take a couple minutes a week. But, we both know the VV forum needed a lot more than a couple updates to be a good reflection on VV. It needed a real search function, updates, moderation, and participation by someone at VV to be a positive part of VV's web presence. If VV's forum were everything it could be, I doubt you would have bothered with this forum... unless you just like setting up and maintaining forums (and no disrespect at all if you do, I certainly don't have the patience for it).

Remember, the VV forum is part of VV's corporate image. My guess is that the VV team decided that it was long overdue to actually "fix" the forum and make it a better part of that image. I have no idea what kind of fix they may be doing. I hope at the very least, they are migrating to a better forum code base. It would be really cool if they were adding moderation.

[RichDC]

Well, I can't see how you can come to that conclusion. I mean, you might if other competitors were doing something similar.

However, let's look at history.

Radio silence heading up to April deadline for alpha...

turns out alpha is not ready.

Alpha will be ready in July...

radio silence heading into July... throughout july.... end of july.

turns out alpha is not ready...

radio silence going forward... and you want me to think that... maybe they really ARE making great progress this time, but just aren't sharing it?

Each time in the past that they've gone radio silent it was because the news wasn't good. But maybe, MAYBE, this time is different? I wouldn't hold my breath.



see above.




Let me ask you a question... how do you think Ian finds investors?

Do you think he simply goes about cold calling anyone who will answer the phone who has enough money to invest in something like this? No. He road the X-prize publicity and other such things to get people to call HIM.

How do you get investor support without any publicity? Not just forum updates, but articles in magazines, autobloggreen, etc...


And may I ask, exactly what is this need for secrecy that you speak of?

Afraid someone will use the tilting technology? or maybe they will learn what propulsion system he is using? oh... maybe you are afraid that they will learn what bolt size he uses to secure ice engine.

There isn't an overt need for secrecy here. Especially not on the level that we are seeing currently. Furthermore, there is nothing that a competitor could use. None of their competitors are anywhere near the same type of vehicle. Sure, a four door coupe manufacturer could glean information from another four door coupe manufacturer, but not from a tilting three wheel motorcycle manufacturer. All the major details are already public.

The truth is this...

Ian isn't the kind of person who is honest enough to be able to say we are having a rough patch, and bear with us (even though we expect this).

Missing deadlines, etc... and all we ever hear is things are going great. No, if they were going great, you wouldn't miss your deadline. Something is NOT going great.

Long rant short... he's not radio silent because of secrecy.

He needs publicity to draw in investors. He needs to be drawing in investors before the Alpha is finished being built... I don't want to wait until he gets funding for him to continue working on the Beta version. do you?

Yes, the web and other publicity is vital to investors, unless you think he already has all he needs... But last I heard he only had enough for the Alpha... which was supposed to be built by April. And now nearly half a year later, I can't imagine that money has stretched this far... he's pursuing investors, or talking them into ponying up more money... if they can't or won't (for lack of progress) then he may be up a proverbial creek without an serial hybrid powered paddle...



Basically, here is the point... your ideas of him needing secrecy for whatever reason don't make any sense. He has no direct competitors. In production or the X-prize. (for the X-prize he currently is NOT competition for any other entry... those that are up and running are not gonna redesign their vehicle because of something they learned about the v1... there are very few vehicles where anything from the v1 would apply, and most of the few that would apply to, are already finished with the design phase).

No, if you are honest with yourself, the only reason for the secrecy is... nothing good to report (at best).

Sorry for the long rant.

However, I just can't let it go when I see people doing mental gymnastics to rationalize things like that.

Don't look now, but you may have just sprained your own brain!

Wow! So much anger. So many assumptions. So much certainty on how things are going and what steps need to be taken for someone who doesn't even work for VV. Thanks for letting us all know how we're supposed to think.

[Derwin]

C'mon now, fella's....Play nice! pop:c:r:n12

Derwin

[cobraphx]

Byteware,

Did Tesla botch the job? They were at least as far behind their original projected timeline as VV is now. Seems they have product on the road now. Aptera has been quiet since they announced in April that they were starting production and would be available at the end of 2008. Have they gone belly up? Toyota has been pretty mum about the 2010 Prius, have they shelved it? Pretty sure that was announced as a 2009 model. Toyota slipped a year on a redesign of something they've been building for more than a decade.

If Ian and team can get the V1 off the assembly line in 2009 or 2010, I'd say they've done a pretty good job all in all. We do know that they had a prototype frame before May, were building prototype body panels and working on front suspension in June, and had a running power pod in July. To assume nothing has happened since then is silly. It's like assuming every night when you go home you've been fired because you boss hasn't reassured you you are still employed. Progress is progress even if it isn't on-time according to a timeline, or project plan.

If publicity is needed to draw in investors, how do forum updates accomplish this? For instance, EEStor is fully funded to production, and they've never posted a single web update, in fact they haven't even put up their website yet. Nanosolar got another $300 million (for a grand total of 1/2 billion so far) in private financing without a forum to post updates in. I'd guess that none of the investors putting up that money found out about them by browsing the web one day, finding the Nanosolar website and saying to themselves... "Self, I think that website looks great, and I've got $50 million burning a hole in my pocket, let me email them..." The people with the money to invest know where to look, and they aren't reading in the forum everyday looking for an update among the hundreds of other posts.

[Derwin]

Notice I said "manage the forum", I'm pretty sure managing this forum takes you more than 5 or 10 minutes a week...

I thought we were talking about VV giving "updates" and not the overall management of the forum. But even at that, it should/would not take that much time at all. As for this club forum, I spend a GREAT DEAL amount of time reading all of the posts, and then responding when I feel the need. But it takes no time at all to actually "manage" this site. It actually manages itself, truth be told!

Again, whether they do indeed put up another official forum, or decide against it, does not matter to me. Yes, I would LOVE to be informed of what is going on behind the scenes, but it's not necessary. I will be an enthusiast of this whether they let me know what's going on, or not. As of NOW, I am hooked. But I have to remind people that the only way I got "hooked" is by reading the company forum. =y:

How's that for "riding the fence?"!!!! ;-)

Derwin

[Derwin]

This club forum is here so that everybody can express their opinion about what is going on. If somebody expresses their opinion, they are NOT asking people to no longer think for themselves. And they are not even asking people to accept the opinion.......at least I never see it that way.

When people give their opinion, it is just that......THEIR opinion. Take it for what it is, and move on.

Now that's MY opinion!

Derwin

[cobraphx]

Derwin,

I'd say that's an outstanding job of maintaining objective neutrality (riding the fence). :-) I would have been interested in the V1 without the forum. I actually found it after looking for some info on the Carver. The most impressive thing to me about the forum was being part of the design process and watching the design change as things went along. On the downside, we (the opinionated forum members) caused a 2-3 month delay by not being entirely behind one design in December. But the finished product will likely appeal to a wider audience than either of the December designs would have if one of them had made it to production unscathed.

Now that the design process is over, I think the forum is much less valuable. This isn't to say it is invaluable (thanks ran) without value, just not nearly as important as it once was.

[RAN]

Now that the design process is over, I think the forum is much less valuable. This isn't to say it is invaluable, just not nearly as important as it once was.

uh... invaluable means it's very valuable. I think you meant to say "it's not worthless, just not as important as it once was."

[cobraphx]

None of these companies has a history of going radio silent when outlook isn't good.

Each time they have missed their deadlines, they went radio silent.

Tesla and Aptera have never run radio silent.

VV runs radio silent when they are behind (and presumably worse).


Here's a quote from the top post on apterafurum.com :

Hello Everyone, has anyone heard anything new or upcoming on the Aptera? It seems like they have dropped off the face of the earth, I have not heard anything new or upcoming for at least 3 months now. You would think that they could at least let the people who have a reservation know something. I am beginging to think that it will be until at least 2010 until they will produce any product.
Maybe I have missed something but if you have heard anything new let me know. Thanks


Sound familiar? Not sure where you've been seeing the information coming from Aptera lately. I haven't seen any new info from Aptera since they began the production phase. Keep in mind this is posted by someone that has already paid money for the opportunity to buy an Aptera. Does their silence mean bad news? Byteware must presume so. But I'm not sure the two are one and the same.

[cobraphx]

uh... invaluable means it's very valuable. I think you meant to say "it's not worthless, just not as important as it once was."

You're right Ran, my use of the English language was a failure in that case.

[Mark Tomlinson]

Sound familiar? Not sure where you've been seeing the information coming from Aptera lately. I haven't seen any new info from Aptera since they began the production phase. Keep in mind this is posted by someone that has already paid money for the opportunity to buy an Aptera. Does their silence mean bad news? Byteware must presume so. But I'm not sure the two are one and the same.

I'm going to disagree with both of you. Well, more with Byteware than Cobraphx actually. The problem with VV is poor PR, not radio silence or a mismanaged web site. Even when Ian was especially chatty in the forums, the main web site was rife with out-dated or incorrect information. I hesitate to read too much about the business failing or succeeding just because there are no updates or the forum's been down for a week.

Aptera has a history of being quiet. Despite the poster's comments in the Aptera forum, they've really never talked much about the vehicle unless they have some hard, news-worthy thing to talk about. It's just their way. On the other end of the spectrum, GM has been uncharacteristically chatty about the Volt - even the failures or potential delays. The main difference between the two is that GM has a high-power PR department that is dedicated to the job.

Venture seems to have started out wanting to tell everybody everything. Blame Ian for that. But keeping it up requires resources. It's got to be a full time job for someone. I think Venture found they couldn't handle it, but never decided what to do about it. So now they flounder with PR and probably decided just to ignore it.

Bad call in my opinion.

[plm]

I would like to add one more thing to the mix - didnt someone a few weeks ago see something about a law suite? I have no information on this suite but I am wanting to think it has something to do with the company name - if that is the case the suites may be tell Ian what he can do on the the VV web site until it has been decided - that may also be why a few months ago there was the big push for a new company name & a name for the V1 other than Venture Vehicle.
Just a thought.

[Derwin]

What is disturbing is Ian starts going radio silent when things go bad.

I felt I had to respond with a couple questions...

How do you KNOW things have gone "bad"?

How do you know Ian posted EVERY time something went good?

I think you are making many assumptions where there is no true evidence.

All we know is that Ian has indeed posted some positive things in the past. That is ALL we know. Anything else is mere conjecture.

Derwin

[Derwin]

Is it the only pattern that fits with the information we have? Actually yes.

Unless you assume facts not in evidence (to use a legal term) there is no other conclusion that fits.

Well, I guess I have to simply disagree with you. Again, all we know for a FACT is that Ian has posted some "updates" about what they are doing. We also know for a FACT that Ian has stated things in some of his posts, and has not followed through on what he has said.

As far a "deadlines", Heck, many people who have been following this for a couple years know that Venture Vehicles said they would have this thing ON THE MARKET IN 2008! Obviously, this has not happened, and is not going to happen.

MY "assumption" is that they simply were over-optimistic in the very beginning. But then when it came to getting everything together, reality began to set in.

You are assuming facts not in evidence when you say that things went "wrong". There is no hard evidence to suggest that. Things could be going VERY WELL, just not on the timeline that they previously thought it would be.

As far as the forum is concerned, Ian or VV NEVER stated that it was coming back up. They never said that it was being taken down either! We heard this from a fellow member of this club, not from the company itself.

We can all come to different conclusions about what is going on behind the scenes, but don't say that YOURS is the ONLY logical way to see it.

Derwin

[Hardtime11]

One thing I have to agree with a lot of the people on is that the site has been down for about a week now and no change. Promises or word is of little value to some as displayed thusfar. They just have the old Main site up to fill the void and avoid the error messages. If it were updated the cockpit view (http://flytheroad.com/images/Cockpit_day_sm.jpg) on the "Concept" Page (http://flytheroad.com/venture_one.html) of the Main Site (http://flytheroad.com/) would of been changed/updated by now as it was mentioned to be "done tonight" over a year ago now.

Going by the above one has to assume they are not done with the site as of yet. The main problem I see with this is they could be waiting for a new piece of software to run on the site but it should still be up even with a possible learning curve for the software. My thought is as others mentioned earlier is the the Admin has decided to take a break or the site has gone further onto the back burner as far as attention given and they do not care. Now the only other way to think would be that there is a member of the team doing the website after hours and is totally burned out after a long day at the shop?

I know if I was the Site Admin I would feel that it was a personal affront/disgrace to have a site down or incomplete this long for any reason. That is of course unless the Site owner has asked it to go to this state until further notice but I could not see a professional doing this this long.

All of the above is just open statements.

[Hardtime11]

My precious post was just my feelings as a previous host/site admin of many sites as well as a few forums. It is not meant to be pointed at any individual but just a personal feeling of how I would feel if I were personally involved in the site. I am sure a few others here that currently do similar work feel the same way or they should if they were in that position.

[Derwin]

I know if I was the Site Admin I would feel that it was a personal affront/disgrace to have a site down or incomplete this long for any reason.

How do we KNOW for a FACT that the site is "incomplete" or not the way they want it for now? You are ASSUMING that something went wrong. I guess this is a safe assumption, but it is still indeed an assumption! For all we know, this may be what they want for now. Maybe they do not want the forum up at this time, and are planning on creating an entirely new site. So, for now, they have kept the main site up for new people to view.

Will there in FACT be a new site coming? I don't know. But I do know that Ian and Rick Balsiger have hinted (and directly stated in the case of Rick) that there WOULD be a new enthusiasts site and forum. He stated this last year to me in a personal email that I think is posted somewhere in this club. They obviously have not done this yet, and I have no idea why. But it doesn't bother me in the least.

I think we all have to remember that we are SPECTATORS..... That is all. We are sitting on the sidelines watching them put together an incredible vehicle. Sometimes our view gets obstructed by the lack of information. But we did not pay for a ticket to this game! We are here FREE OF CHARGE! When we see things that are going on, it's an incredible bonus, and it makes us more excited. And when we are no longer able to see what's going on, we really have no "right" to complain.

My attitude is to just relax and enjoy the view.....WHEN we get a view!

Derwin

[Hardtime11]

How do we KNOW for a FACT that the site is "incomplete" or not the way they want it for now?

Derwin

You are correct in a sense but it is the wording I use.

To further break down my wording as to not play with words: I call a site complete when everything that the site is supposed to have or connected to is functional/working. To me when something does not work, non-functioning or returns errors, I call it incomplete or I guess it could be unfinished. For example to me an incomplete site would be when a link or something is not functional. Go to the main site, flytheroad.com (http://flytheroad.com/) and hover your mouse over the icon button as imaged below. You will notice the slogan "Be part of the process". Then click on the button itself. It goes nowhere but returns an error "500 Internal Server Error". What process are we supposed to be part of? I guess it is not complete or incomplete. I know if I was part of it I would at least place a construction in progress page or something to that effect for that link to point to.

Now it is true they may want it that way for now just as a place holder to at least avoid the main site error (400) and not care about the other error (500). A little tacky but whatever floats their boat.

[Derwin]

By definition if they are missing deadlines, then something is going wrong.

What "deadlines" are you talking about? Are you referring to some posts that Ian made in the forum pertaining to certain times he THOUGHT things should be completed by? These are hardly "deadlines" that the company needed to meet. These are simply things that Ian posted to keep us informed on what is expected to be going on in the future. He definitely was WRONG in saying that they expected to be marketing the vehicle by the end of 2008, wasn't he? You bet! But I don't think that the things he posted to a PUBLIC FORUM contained HARD DEADLINES set by the company. Again, you are assuming far to much IN MY OPINION in saying that things are "going wrong" with the project.


He only posted again when there was good news to post.

This I really don't understand! When do you expect the company to post? Or what exactly do you expect them to tell us? Ian posted things that he was excited about. He posted when he had pictures he wanted to share, or events he wanted us to know about. I really don't understand when you expect him to post, or about what exactly you realistically expect him to post. ???? I just don't get it.


That fellow member of this club supposedly talked to the tech support of VV. I have no reason to doubt that to be true. Just as I have no reason to doubt that you talked to Ian directly. If you are indicating that the member was lying or some such, please present that.

I never indicated that hardtime11 was lying. If you took it that way, you are WRONG! What I was saying is that you cannot hold the COMPANY or IAN responsible for what a TECH had to say. The tech that hardtime spoke could have stated anything. He could be a very nice fellow. But he obviously does not have the final say on how things proceed with the site. It is only Venture Vehicle personnel that would have that authority.


You have provided other conclusions, but not any reason to come to those conclusions. You have said everything can be going very well at VV, but they have not behaved this way when things were going very well at VV.

Well, I don't know how long you have been following Venture Vehicles, but this is NOT new! If you go back in time....I am talking about when they first put up the site, then you would see that Ian was NEVER keeping up with the forum, and Ian NEVER made regular updates! So, they HAVE INDEED BEEN BEHAVING THIS WAY since the very beginning. THERE IS NOTHING NEW HERE. This is Venture Vehicle's and Ian's M.O. So you are coming to YOUR conclusions based on faulty, or a lack of, information.


Last but not least... if they are not working to bring the forum back up... then that is more reason not to trust them, not less.

Why? Just because they chose to not tell you everything every step of the way? This is ridiculous in my opinion. Talk to some of the big auto manufacturers.... they don't give the public moment by moment view of what they are doing.


You can reach your own conclusion as well... it's simply that the facts we have don't support your conclusion.

Again, you are not aware of what has gone on since the beginning. You are basing you entire argument on the assumption that there is now something DIFFERENT going on. This is a false assumption. You are presenting FALSE/INCOMPLETE evidence to your argument. I suggest that you speak with many that have been here since the beginning. They will all tell you the same thing is this respect...... Ian was never on time with updates, and ALWAYS would post something, and then it not come to pass exactly has he posted. This was especially true when it came to promised information.

The ONLY thing NEW that is going on now, is that the COMPANY FORUM is now down. That is all. Everything else is business as usual for Ian and VV.


The site is incomplete, because when you click on the forum link... you get an internal server error...Therefore the site is not complete.

Well, I think I stated what I meant as being "complete". But I will repeat it.... How do we know for a fact that this is not the way Venture Vehicles wants the site to be at this moment in time? Simple answer... We don't. This is what I meant by "complete"...... The idea that the site is exactly as they want it.....for now. IF it is, then the site is "complete" as far as THEY are concerned. But this is just an assumption on my part. I don't know it for a fact, and neither do you.


However, we are free to form our own conclusions from the views we get.

I hope you are willing to allow other people to form conclusions that differ from yours, without telling them they are wrong and have no basis. This is simply arrogant in my opinion. I would suggest that you give your opinion, based on YOUR INTERPRETATION of the "facts" that you know about. But allow others to do the same. Your interpretation of what is going on may indeed be true. Give others the same courtesy.


This is why Ian breaking his word matters. This is why Ian not doing what he says he will do.. matters.

Are you seriously saying that posts to a company forum are to be equated with the after sale service that is provided to customers? I could say a great deal about this, but I'm getting tired of this. Needless to say, I completely disagree with you.

I am still an enthusiast of this company, and of the vehicle that they are trying to create. I will remain an enthusiast until the day it hits the roads. If I'm allowed a peek into the behind the scenes activity at the company, then this is indeed a bonus, and I am grateful for it. The fact that they took the company forum down does NOT affect me at all, and does not put a damper on my enthusiasm.

What else can I say? You opinion could be correct. Either way, I remain excited about this product.

Derwin

[cobraphx]

Hardtime is right about the site, until they either fix or remove the Blog & Forums link, the site is broken. Now me, I'd take the link off the page until I fixed it, but that's just me. I think we can all agree that this isn't the way VV wants to keep it. But none of us know what the short term (just leave it broken?) or long term (replace the entire site and fourm with something new?) solution is for VV.

[Derwin]

I have built many sites over that past few years, and I don't consider a site "broken" if just one link is not working. I would say that the link in question is "broken", but not the entire site! I agree, though, that it is really unprofessional, and they should just REMOVE the link altogether, instead of letting it sit there broken.

This is my opinion, so take it for what it is.... But I don't think that the link is broken by accident. I think that they made it that way on purpose. For some reason (yet to be known by any of us) they have chosen to take the forum down, and that is the reason for the broken link.

Hopefully they are working on putting up a new, better site/forum. But only time will tell.

Derwin

[Hardtime11]

I never indicated that hardtime11 was lying. If you took it that way, you are WRONG! What I was saying is that you cannot hold the COMPANY or IAN responsible for what a TECH had to say. The tech that hardtime spoke could have stated anything. He could be a very nice fellow. But he obviously does not have the final say on how things proceed with the site. It is only Venture Vehicle personnel that would have that authority.

Derwin
That is cool as I do not. I did however because of wording feel the need for further explanation though. That is why I get upset when others do not hold to their word as I still believe in, "A Man is only as good as his word". If they are not I refer to them as a "child of nowadays" as morals and principles are becoming more of a thing of the past. That is why I think it is so funny (most of the time) when people try to manipulate what I say.

I normally make statements from what I research or am told by individuals involved. I also frequently link things as to give backing or credibility to the statements I make. I normally state otherwise (opinion, open statement,etc..) when I make statements through personal opinion or such. I informed everyone as to what the tech informed me of in a brief call while he was waiting for a call from NS. That is probably the only reason he answered the phone was because of the timing and my number comes across as a networked phone.

Now it could be from that time to now things could of came down from VV as to a different method of approach or they may be actually farming out to another admin at this point and awaiting review of a finished product. It is just a hypothesis/guess at this point.

I think that most have already figured out the above about me.

[Hardtime11]

I could provide them with a very generic construction page that even has an applet the says the same in several different languages. Example below.

[robcole84]

My internet has been down and I come back to find that the site is down!!! I looked at the date and its been a week since the OP was made and it said the site would be fixed the next day! Wow, this wait must have been killer for everyone but atleast maybe more people will migrate here, its alot better forum and it has a search engine! lol!

In the meantime lets all sit back and relax... :Beer:

[RAN]

A man's word is a man's word Derwin. If a man's word is worthless, it doesn't matter what the subject. It's worthless.

Are you seriously saying that if a man does not do the small things he says he will do, that you expect him to do the big things he says he will do?

But then again... that goes back to a man's word, and reliability.

If someone down the road keeps telling you that they are going to do something and don't. Over months or a year or more...

Then one day you go to buy a car from a dealership he owns. And he tells you all the things his company will do for you after the sale if you buy the car... are you going to believe him? Probably not. I understand wanting the V1 to be a reality, but that shouldn't give Ian a pass....

I am an enthusiast of the Vehicle. I am absolutely not an enthusiast of the company. The company needs to earn that, the proposed vehicle earned it, the company has not.

The only spokesman for the company has broken his word publicly too many times for me to be an enthusiast of the company. In fact, I'd feel much safer and comfortable about the V1 if someone else was spearheading this project.

I have to go with byteware on this one; I've said the same thing myself.

Derwin, we had a discussion about people not keeping their word not long ago on another subject a little nearer and dearer to you. How is it OK for Ian to constantly break his word, and not OK for others to do it? If Ian can't keep his word on something as simple as making a 5 minute post, how can you believe him when he says the V-1's safe? Remember the way he tried to pass off the Carver as a Venture Vehicles "prototype" on Invention Nation? It was at that point that my esteem for him really started to fall, and he's done nothing to raise it back up since then.

I don't know the whole story behind Martin Eberhard getting booted from Tesla, but it's beginning to look like something similar needs to happen to Venture Vehicles. I'm sure the original investors were told the V-1 would be production ready by fall 2008 too. I wonder how that's working for them now???

It's really not a position you can defend, Derwin. You can want a V-1 all you want, but you can't defend someone on their word when their word is worthless.

[cobraphx]

Honestly, pulling the forum down without notice(before or after the fact) is not something reputable respectable companies do.

This is how they've always behaved. Something that's pushing them back, or making the vehicle take longer or going WRONG... they don't post and ignore those on the forums... which is what they are doing now.

A man's word is a man's word Derwin. If a man's word is worthless, it doesn't matter what the subject. It's worthless.

Are you seriously saying that if a man does not do the small things he says he will do, that you expect him to do the big things he says he will do?

But then again... that goes back to a man's word, and reliability.

Then one day you go to buy a car from a dealership he owns. And he tells you all the things his company will do for you after the sale if you buy the car... are you going to believe him? Probably not. I understand wanting the V1 to be a reality, but that shouldn't give Ian a pass....

I am an enthusiast of the Vehicle. I am absolutely not an enthusiast of the company. The company needs to earn that, the proposed vehicle earned it, the company has not.

The only spokesman for the company has broken his word publicly too many times for me to be an enthusiast of the company. In fact, I'd feel much safer and comfortable about the V1 if someone else was spearheading this project.

It really sounds like you should write off the V1 from the list of vehicles you are considering. The V1 was an ambitious project from the beginning, and Ian obviously wan't prepared for the amount of juggling it would take to manage the project AND keep the public updated. He made a commitment he was unable to deliver on (for whatever reason... maybe as you feel, just because he enjoys deceiving people). To assume everyone at VV has put their tools down and thrown in the towel because Ian hasn't posted any updates is a bit radical, just as thinking that it will be in your driveway in Jan 2009 is quite fanciful (granted the former is much more likely).

Me, I'll judge the V1 on what's delivered, same as with the GM Volt. I'm not a big fan of Lutz, but he's the CEO, not wrenching them together on the assembly line. I personally think Steve Jobs is a tool, but the IPhone is something I might own when they work the rest of the feature set into the product. I think Ian meant well with the forum, just fell short of delivering. Now, if he's not updating the site because he's too busy spending his investor's money vacationing in Bali or Carver broke the Licensing agreement or they are holding bake sales to raise money, then V1 is truly sunk. If it's because he's too busy working on V1 production, the PR company advised against it, the investors balked at so much info being released, the lawyers want things quiet due to the ongoing litigation, then things may be progressing quite readily.

If you truly believe what you say you do, (Ian is an dishonest, unreliable person and that the work to bring the V1 to production has failed and no progress has been made in the last 3 months) sounds to me like it's time to write the V1 off as a failure and move on.

[RAN]

What has really thrown a wrench into the works is that the V-1 was originally conceived to be powered by PML Flightlink hub motors. They're small, simple, powerful, and they leave the whole power pod area free to hold batteries, genset, and electronics.

Many months ago, Ian decided that those motors were not, in his words, "ready for prime-time." Strangely enough, though, the Lightning GT in England is going to use them. One would think, that if they're good enough to use in a $200,000, high-performance GT, they should be good enough to use in a $20,000 3 wheel tilter. Volvo is looking at them too. The logical conclusion is that something fell through in the PML deal (and I'd love to know the details on that), not that they're not good enough to use.

Now they have to use a conventional electric motor instead. Now they're stuck trying to cram 10 lbs of potatoes into a 5 lb bag. It's not surprising that it doesn't fit.

It's also not surprising that there are interminable delays. It's just disappointing that they want to sit there and feed us the "making great progress" BS line over and over.

[Derwin]

Derwin, we had a discussion about people not keeping their word not long ago on another subject a little nearer and dearer to you. How is it OK for Ian to constantly break his word, and not OK for others to do it?

RAN, I thought you knew be better than that! First, byteware is really twisting my words around in a way that is completely and utterly unrecognizable, and I might go into it deeper in another post.

As to the matter that is "nearer and dearer" to me.... This had to do with MY PERSONAL FINANCES. When people gave me their word, I then SPENT MONEY out of MY POCKET based on their word. Then when they broke their word, it cost me. BIG DIFFERENCE from Ian breaking his word over and over in his company forum! Ian broke his word over and over again, and it did not cost me a dime! There is absolutely no comparison.

As to me thinking it is "OK", I don't know where you or anyone else would get this from. It's NOT OK in my opinion that Ian made promises of updates, and then did not come through. Where did you read that I said that?

Anyway, I hope this clears that up.

Derwin

[Lumberjack]

Perhaps you should view it as, Ian didn't live up to YOUR expectations.....

Before you guys get to ragging on Ian too bad , check out the other car maker sites and see what is really normal....

The VV website was about a concept, Now welcome to reality.

[Derwin]

byteware,

I don't know if you enjoy fighting with people, and being disagreeable, just for the sake of it, but I certainly do not. You have taken what I have stated, and twisted them until they have an entirely different meaning.

Let me set you straight about my opinion, because you are obviously misreading what I have posted.


Derwin... it seems like your posts are getting more angry on this topic... so take a minute, breathe and calm down. (if I'm mistaken I apologize)

LOL! I'm not the one getting upset, fella. I don't see where in the world you could get that from. I am just stating MY OPINION based on the facts that I know. You, on the other hand, are spouting out your opinions, and then telling everyone else with a different opinion that their is not valid. Not a good way to communicate.

I stated that you did not understand the HISTORY of the company forum, and were assuming things that are not true. You then posted...


That is a false assumption on your part Derwin...
I'm not going on the assumption that something different is going on... you are.

But this is what you have been saying in previous posts. Your whole argument was that IAN HAS NOT POSTED....IAN HAS NOT GIVEN UPDATES AS EXPECTED....AND ON AND ON..... Well, as I already stated, this is nothing new!


Honestly, pulling the forum down without notice(before or after the fact) is not something reputable respectable companies do.

Are you kidding me? Surely you are joking, right? Did you actually READ the content of that company forum? It was filled with so much crap that you needed waste-high waders just to sift through all of it! If they did NOT take it down, I would question the reputation and respectability of Venture Vehicles!


Derwin you are not only allowed (by God rather than me) to form your own opinion, you are also allowed (also by God rather than me) to post the facts that lead you to form that opinion.

Are you telling me, and everybody else reading this, something that we don't already know and completely understand? I must say again, your attitude is not good at all, and slightly arrogant, and You admitted this yourself in your previous post. What I don't understand is....WHY? Do you like projecting an image of arrogance? Again, I don't understand people like that.

At any rate, thanks for giving us all the "heads up" on having the freedom to post our own opinion. But that was not the issue, and you know it. The issue was having an intelligent discussion about the opinions that we all come to, without downing the other person. I did not do that to you, even though I do indeed think that you are wrong. Instead I told you that you may indeed by correct, and that time will reveal all. That is the classy way to handle a disagreement. But, then again, that's just my opinion!


Perhaps you should view it as, Ian didn't live up to YOUR expectations.....

Before you guys get to ragging on Ian too bad , check out the other car maker sites and see what is really normal....

The VV website was about a concept, Now welcome to reality.


Amen, brother! Those were words based on common sense, and a dose of how things happen in the REAL world. I'm glad you decided to post. I was getting exhausted responding to all the negativity.

I really look at all this in a basic way.... Venture Vehicles decided to share some things about the PROJECT they are working on. They did so over the past couple years to the delite of many enthusiasts. Now they have decided to completely shut off the information. Now people are crying like babies because they can't be "in" on what is going on anymore. It's really ridiculous in my opinion.

When Venture Vehicles decides to give us more information, they will do it. If they decide not to give us ONE WORD of information until the day and very HOUR that the car comes to market, then so be it!

I would say to everybody.....Cool down. Relax. Light up a nice premium cigar and take it easy! When/If this vehicle comes to market, I'm sure we will all (most!) be happy, and will be racing to put down our deposit!

Derwin

[randi]

byteware,

I was getting exhausted ... all the negativity.

I really look at all this in a basic way.... Venture Vehicles decided to share some things about the PROJECT they are working on. They did so over the past couple years to the delite of many enthusiasts. Now they have decided to completely shut off the information. Now people are crying like babies because they can't be "in" on what is going on anymore. It's really ridiculous in my opinion.

When Venture Vehicles decides to give us more information, they will do it. If they decide not to give us ONE WORD of information until the day and very HOUR that the car comes to market, then so be it!

... When/If this vehicle comes to market, I'm sure we will all (most!) be happy, and will be racing to put down our deposit!

Derwin


Hello, Derwin:

agr:1

We were fortunate for a while (a very long while) to be part of the process of changing the paradigm of the automotive industry. Things change. VV has decided to take their project behind closed doors.

It's also time to close this thread--it's a moot point that the VV forum has not come back up "soon" (as the thread title states).

The thread is being used to rehash recriminations about missed updates and timelines, and whatever else VV said they'd do but didn't deliver--all of which we've heard ad nauseum both here and in the now defunct VV forum.

Worse, it's become a soapbox for the few who relish hurling vitriol without regard.

Enough is enough.

[cpaddock]

What She said!
Curves Ahead!

[Derwin]

Hello, Derwin:
We were fortunate for a while (a very long while) to be part of the process of changing the paradigm of the automotive industry.

Amen, sister! I agree with you. We were indeed very fortunate that we were allowed to be a part of the project, and see glimpses of what was going on, for as long as we did. I, for one, am honored that they opened it up to us for the past couple years.


It's also time to close this thread--it's a moot point that the VV forum has not come back up "soon" (as the thread title states).

The thread is being used to rehash recriminations about missed updates and timelines, and whatever else VV said they'd do but didn't deliver--all of which we've heard ad nauseum both here and in the now defunct VV forum.

Worse, it's become a soapbox for the few who relish hurling vitriol without regard.

Enough is enough.

I also agree with you on these points. We don't want to rehash old garbage here. We really want to go forward and discuss things in a POSITIVE way.

For this reason, as well as others, I think it's time to close this thread also.

Derwin