Honda fires one accross Toyota's bow

[AZEqualizer]

According to an article on the Autoblog.com (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/04/paris-preview-officially-official-hondas-new-hybrid-is-the-in/) web site:
Honda has issued a Press release, prior to its unveiling at the Paris Autoshow, of the Honda Insight concept car which is due to be released in 2009 and will in theory take the title of the least expensive hybrid, starting at $18500 ( this is a price hinted at by Honda in various other interviews).

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/09/insight_concept_001_opt.jpg

The new Insight Concept shares styling cues with the Honda FCX Clarity fuel cell vehicle and will provide an early look at the highly-anticipated five-passenger hybrid vehicle.
Going on sale in the U.S. next spring, the all-new purpose-built Insight will come to market at a price significantly below hybrids available today. From this unique position in the marketplace, the Insight will advance the affordability and accessibility of hybrid technology to a new generation of buyers.
"The original Honda Insight pioneered hybrid technology in the U.S. and remains a symbol of Honda's commitment to innovative technology and fuel efficiency," said Takeo Fukui, Honda Motor Co., Ltd. CEO. "This new Insight will break new ground as an affordable hybrid within the reach of customers who want great fuel economy and great value."

[AZEqualizer]

According to The GreenCar Advisor (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/09/honda-releases-photo-of-new-hybrid-the-2010-insight.html):
Honda has said the new Insight, expected to hit showrooms next spring as a 2010 model, will be priced below the Civic Hybrid, which starts at $23,550. Most industry observers have taken that to mean it will be a sub-$20,000 car.

Honda has not released any information about the Insight's anticipated fuel economy or performance.

The carmaker said the car will use a new, "more cost-efficient version" of Honda's Integrated Motor Assist "mild" hybrid system. We suspect that means the system uses a, smaller battery pack and smaller electric motor to help propel what is, after all, a smaller, lighter car than the Civic Hybrid, presently the company's only hybrid offering.

Honda says production efficiencies also have helped lower cost of the system.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/HondaInsight2-thumb-400x240.jpg
Honda New Insight hybrid (right) and CR-Z sports coupe concept (left) have strong design links to automaker's FCX Clarity fuel cell car(center).

[Jack Willard]

Honda has not released any information about the Insight's anticipated fuel economy or performance.

And depending on what that information will end up being, Honda may be firing across Venture Vehicle's bow as well! Because if the perfomance and fuel economy is high enough, guess what I will be getting instead of the VentureOne? That is of course unless the currently projected price of the V1 comes down in order to be competitive.

I have a V6 (great performance) Accord right now and I love everything except that I need MUCH better mileage (27.5mpg) and I would LIKE to drive a green car.

Now don't get me wrong. If the Honda Insight has squat for performance and just "better" mileage, I am willing to pay a certain amount more to get great performance and great mileage, if that's where we end up in a production V1.

The V1 FUN FACTOR will certainly influence the purchase decision as well. But I have to say that proven reliabilty and consistantly high resale value from Honda is a really big factor too.

I want a VentureOne SOOOO MUCH. But I'm not going to be STUPID about it. This may end up being a really HARD decision in 2010! no:wor:thy1

[Baja_Traveler]

I have in my mind a 50mpg combined economy barrier - any less than that, and I'm waiting for a VV. As soon as someone comes out with a proven real world 50mpg (not tested on the prarie with a tail wind), I may not be so willing to wait...

[RAN]

I wonder who can produce the "mildest" hybrid of all? Maybe one that uses a few D cells and a personal cooling fan motor?? <eyeroll>

[ziggy951]

I will most likely get a V1 regardless of the competition because of its perfect commuter, personal opinion, adaptation. It seats 1 + some baggage or 2 people for lunch. It is sport...well, I may be getting ahead of myself in what it actually WILL be. But if the specs are similar to what was or has been speculated I do think it will fit my needs. I will need at least two vehicles anyhow because I will most likely not work the same hours or even in the same building as my wife. Now she may not be able to handle the fun of this vehicle on a day to day basis but I know I could. She would probably rather have a standard 4 door vehicle or even a smaller or coup version. As long as its 40+ mpg I think she would be happy. Would she consider an insight? I doubt it, she is too in love with looks of her vehicles and the insight aint one of them. She grew up a MOPAR girl /sigh

As for a 4 door hybrid or extreme mpg vehicle for me, comparing to today's average, I am not sure it matters all that much. For a weekend warrior I will use one of my petrol or fully electric "toys". For hauling the kids soccer/chess/football/ballerina team to and from practice I will have to get a 7 seater vehicle anyhow. By the time I need one of those troop carriers, my son is only 3 atm, I would think and hope that my choices will be a vast variety of brand names and technology.

Hopefully by then we will be arguing about whether or not a fully solar car will be better than a plug in EV 5 years down the road.


Wow, thats a bit of rambling but oh well.




Z

[meckman1]

I wonder who can produce the "mildest" hybrid of all? Maybe one that uses a few D cells and a personal cooling fan motor?? <eyeroll>
ROFLMAO!!!!thu:mbs:up:22

[RichDC]

Better looking than a Prius, that's for sure. Not good news for Venture Vehicles, but when the time comes to make my buying decision, I won't be upset to have a few options to choose from.

[meckman1]

To me, it's not a contest. I want a V1, and this is nothing like that.

[meckman1]

These are all good points, but bear in mind that VV only plans to release 4000 units the first year. (hybrid only). I think that once people see these on the road, they will generate even more interest. That's why a lot of folks are so concerned about the lack og updates re: the Alpha model.

Also, this thing looks cool and has a certain amount of street cred. Alot of people who wouldn't buy a Sparrow, a Raven or a Nano will consider this

[Jack Willard]

That is IF knowledgeable people are taking the helm. You will need someone who can put an engine in a power pod in under a year's time for that to happen. And that person is NOT Ian Howard.

This vehicle has a great amount of potential. However, Ian is not the person to spearhead this. If they are putting someone in charge of the project who has the knowledge and the ability to bring the vehicle to market, then we will see a whole new VV.

Why do you apparently believe that Ian is somehow inadequate to perform his position as VP in charge of R&D? Do you have some inside knowledge of his personal engineering capabilities or abilities to direct other people that might be needed as participants in the design process?

I have no reason or knowledge to put forward such a notion. Ian clearly was the original visionary of the whole idea of starting Venture Vehicles, and had the personal drive and fire-in-the-belly to get Howard on board as a partner and get the whole thing started. That sure says alot to myself re his qualifications!

Don't forget that any engineering oriented individual can figure out when and where assistance from others is needed and appropriate. And it is exactly that type of visionary fire-in-the-belly person that I would want leading the charge.

Just where is that negative view of yours re Ian coming from?

[rogwild]

Last fall, Ian mentioned that they had hired an 'experienced project manager', Roger ??, but we have heard nothing else ABOUT or FROM him. What Vv really needs; a 'DOER', not a 'TALKER'!

Git 'er Done, or be left in the Dust!sc:oo:t:e:r4

[Baja_Traveler]

Well, since post number one it's been a "Glass is Half Empty" attitude. Fine by me - some people are just wired that way....

I still have my usual laid-back and positive attitude, and no amount of negativity will change that.

[Paulie]

So Honda's got religion? Maybe. Here's my take.

The re-imagined Honda Insight is clearly a "me-too" product. But sadly, IMHO, it doesn't go far enough to earn the moniker of "Prius-fighter"--what the new Insight was being called within Honda.

Why? Because they chose to stick with the less-than-acceptable IMA mild hybrid system.

The "problem" with IMA is that there's NO "electric-motor-only" propulsion mode. (This is according to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Motor_Assist) But perhaps they fixed that with the "new" IMA set-up. Judging from the info on Honda's site, it looks like the IMA now DOES support "silent running."

See this movie... at about 3-minutes into it, it explains the "motor-only" mode:
http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2005-4050705b/

(Does anyone here have a Honda Civic Hybrid? They would know this system better than I, I'll confess.)

Still, reading into the announcement of the "new Honda Insight," you have to wonder how did they make IMA "more affordable?" Is it as GreenCar suggests--smaller motor, smaller battery pack? If so, I can't imagine how much "better" fuel economy you'll get in the Insight than say, the Prius or even the Civic Hybrid. (A smaller IMA asked to power a bigger car than the Civic? Can't imagine that the Insight will be that great when you're trying to keep up with highway traffic at 65-70 MPH and there's five, full-grown [overweight?] adults jammed in it!)

Still, I suppose if "cheaper hybrids" are what Honda execs think people want, I'm sure they know what they're doing with the new Insight. (Just that consumers will have to remember: "You get what you pay for.")

And to be sure, there will be folks that will "flock" to it--for whatever reason.

Which goes to my contention about some of the opinions out there of late about how V v "has to" hurry up and get their vehicle out otherwise they'll "lose the market."

I believe MORE hybrids--of all types and sizes and capabilities--is a Good Thing(tm).

You want a gas-sipping PHEV that carries five? Go for the next-gen Prius.

Need a "cheap" hybrid? There's the new Insight.

Want a more fuel-efficient people carrier? Go for... (Ok, why hasn't anyone built a full-hybrid minivan yet?!?!?!? Building hybrids must be more complicated than previously thought?u:n:s;ure;5()

You want a PURE serial hybrid commuter car--for those daily solo trips you make from home to office and back again every day? There'll be the Venture Vehicle. (Hopefully.)

Choice is good, IMHO.

[meckman1]

This is a very niche vehicle. Luckily it fits into several niches to some degree, so losing any one niche to a competitor is not a deal killer. However, if VV cannot produce the V1 in the next 3 to 4 years, then they will lose more than one niche, and maybe all of them. If it's not out by 2012, the company won't be viable. That's my personal opinion.

Yes, I know they are supposed to be out in 2010, but they were also supposed to be out by the end of this year.

Yes, of couse this is a niche vehicle. That was always the point, and everything in the VV business model bears that out.

As far as Ian's ability as a business man, I am not qualified to make that call. If you go back and read several of Derwin's previous posts, it seems that people above Ian may be censoring him a bit. Not sure, this just seems to be the case from my perspective.

[dhartman]

I am predicting a combined mpg rating of 53, but could be as high as 56! And I am #1 (with deposit) on the waiting list at my local Honda dealer. But I would be more than happy for my wife to take the new Insight so I could have the VentureOne!!!

[ziggy951]

I am going to have to buy a Buggatti just to offset all of you gas sipping fools!



Z

[westonlgray]

I looked at the Honda video and here are my observations:

1 - It appears that their IMA can move the car on its own. It was unclear whether it would fire the engine a to start rolling and then roll under the IMA electrical power.

2 - Unlike the Prius, the Honda always turns the engine, but it keeps the valves shut to minimize the extra load on the electric motor. This does introduce a little bit more load than the Prius' serial setup, but the Honda I think might be the better system for Hybrids that only go hundreds of feet under electric only power. The reason is that since the Honda always rotates the engine, the engine always has oil pressure and the cylinders are always lubricated. Most engine wear occurs at startup, and the Prius engines have many more startup cycles than the honda design does. I am sure the Toyota engine will still last 150,000 miles or more, but the Toyota engine would also have significantly more wear which could increase polution sooner and decrease efficiency.

3 - I like the honda's air conditioning compressor that is both electrically and mechanically powered. That allows a very small electric motor than is just barely big enough to maintain the temperature, and the mechanical power to get to the temperature during cruising which is the majority of the time.

When batteries get good enough to give an electric only range of maybe 10 or more miles, then the serial technology may be the best, but for now, I think Honda's design might be the best for current technology. We will just have to see which vehicle performs better, the Insight or the Prius. If they have nearly identical mileage, then I would give the edge to the Honda.

[AZEqualizer]

Unveiled at the Paris Auto Show the Honda Prototype. The production version will be introduced to the public at the Detroit Auto Show (http://www.autoblog.com/tag/DetroitAutoShow/) in January and pricing is rumored to be just under $19,000 when it goes on sale.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/10/01_honda_insight_live_paris_opt.jpg

Gallery: Honda Insight (http://www.autoblog.com/photos/honda-insight-live/)

Don't get to excited as some details may not make it into the production version...as usual.

[AZEqualizer]

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/assets_c/2008/12/2009-Honda_Insight-thumb-630x315.jpgGreen Car Advisor (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/12/honda-releases-premier-photo-of-all-new-production-version-2009-insight-hybrid.html) has this to say:

Although the all-new 2009 Honda Insight Hybrid won't make its world debut for another month, when it takes a bow at the Detroit auto show, Japan's No. 2 automaker today released the first photo of the production version of the five-passenger sedan.

While not revolutionary on the technology side of things, the new Insight is a ground-breaker on the price front: Honda has said it will cost less than $20,000, well below the Prius' starting price of $21,500 and the Honda Civic Hybrid's $22,600 base price.

Does this have a familure look?

[Miracleman89]

Is it me or does it look like a Prius with a new nose????

[longspeer]

I think I may buy both. I really like my Honda and also want a tilting vehicle. If only Carver were sold here and cost 20K less

[slowblast]

I'm wait for my bummper sticker from Toyota factory service...
Caution: This vehical may accelerate with out warning,
So, stay the Hell out of its way!...