??Another X-Prize Contender??

[rogwild]

Here is one from the UK:
http://jalopnik.com/393311/100-mpg-axon-city-car-in-realistic+thinking-shocker
http://jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/05/Axon_city_car.jpg

[RAN]

It's sad that horribly complicated, gas-fueled ICE's are so much cheaper than the batteries that are sorely needed to make reasonably-priced EVs a reality. At some point, the dam has to break open. I really think hub motors are the key... they are much more efficient and they free up much-needed real estate under the car to put more batteries and ultracaps for EV's, and more room for gensets for hybrids, and still leave room in the trunk for trips. Unfortunately, until some major manufacturer decides to take a chance on them (of all companies, GM (http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/Future/motorinwheels.shtml) has actually experimented with them) to allow them to go into mass production, things are pretty much stalled.
Small at the wheel motors (like the Dagne seems to use) would be another viable alternative, but they still take up room that could be used for batteries.

[rogwild]

One question, RAN; what do you do if you have a 'flat tire' with a Hub Motor? Are the tires/wheels separate and easy to change, and just bolt onto the Hub Motor?

[RAN]

I don't know for sure Rog, but it *looks* like they are....

[Donald1800]

They are on the Segway. The wheels just bolt onto the hub motors just like they do on drum breaks.

Donald1800

[westonlgray]

I agree that hub motors are probably the way to go, but I disagree that all we need to do to get cheap batteries is to mass produce them. We have been mass producing lithium Ion and Nickel based batteries for a long time, but the materials and processes are expensive. We need to continue to develop new processes and/or new battery types that are cheaper to manufacture. Only then can the prices come down.

Mass production only cures some financial ills. Don't fall for the urban legends that big companies are pushing new technologies to the back room to support big oil or some other nonsense. I don't know if those things happened back in the 50-80's or not, but I can almost guarantee today that if someone had a cheap, efficient battery technology, they would be building the biggest manufacturing plant in the world to pump them out by the millions.

[waboom]

One question, RAN; what do you do if you have a 'flat tire' with a Hub Motor? Are the tires/wheels separate and easy to change, and just bolt onto the Hub Motor?

On a vehicle, the hub motor looks pretty much like a drum brake assembly; the back part is attached to the frame/axle, and the front part has several bolts on it that you put a regular tire on and hold on with lug nuts.

I agree that the hub motors is really where I want the future of vehicle propulsion to evolve to. Having acceleration and braking, in addition to features like ABS and traction control all in this compact unit just really makes sense.

[ziggy951]

Mass production only cures some financial ills. Don't fall for the urban legends that big companies are pushing new technologies to the back room to support big oil or some other nonsense. I don't know if those things happened back in the 50-80's or not, but I can almost guarantee today that if someone had a cheap, efficient battery technology, they would be building the biggest manufacturing plant in the world to pump them out by the millions.

Yup, its a combo of mass adoption, improved and/or cheaper battery tech, smaller and lighter components, and more producers in the market. Thats why I get irritated with companies that waste development time and production on products that dont improve the technology available or give some real, tangible economic value to the end user....like the Volt. The statement that "the average commute for American workers is 30 miles", but there is no way that the average miles driven by an individual is that amount. No one goes from home to work with no stops in between. Most of us run errands and pick up kids, etc during the day too. For real overall effeciency we need something that addresses the problem of 100 or more miles of effeciency per day...but thats just my opinion. Things like high efficiency engines for serial hybrids and new energy storage devices and new tech like regenerative braking combined are what will change the industry and that is what the industry needs.



Z

[RAN]

It's true that with the latest batteries, there are manufacturing difficulties that won't totally go away with mass production, but mass production and competition will still bring prices down.

One of my biggest gripes about hybrids is using an ICE for a genset. I don't want to use any gas at all. To my knowledge, only the Velozzi (openly stated) and the Dagne (inferred by the range of fuels it can use) use micro turbines to charge the batts, which can run on just about anything. I would also love to see metal-fuel cells used, but apparently someone has put the kibosh on them, as there has been no word in the last couple years about them being used in EVs anymore.

GM will not be the innovators in genset technology. They have too many 4 bangers laying around. Same for the other OEMs.

[AZEqualizer]

Electric Minis too! this according to an article on EVO (http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/227640/electric_minis_too.html)
Electric Special: BMW Mini
Hydrogen BMWs still some way off

22nd September 2008

http://www.evo.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_560/car_photo_280452_7.jpg
Engineless Minis are being built for electric power trials

It’s no secret that BMW’s long-term aim is to make hydrogen technology work, but it seems the company can’t make the leap in one move. ‘There are three stages to BMW’s work,’ an insider told us. ‘Right now we have Efficient Dynamics. That will develop into “mild” and “full” hybrids before we reach hydrogen.’

Alongside this, BMW also has ‘Project i’, established to research and develop city cars. Plant Oxford is currently building several hundred engineless Minis, which are being shipped to Munich to have electric internals fitted for worldwide trials.

Exactly what technology these cars will contain is a closely guarded secret, but our source said they won’t feature lithium-ion batteries like the Tesla, nor in-wheel motors like the Lightning. ‘We’ve been doing trials for the past nine years and haven’t got either to work satisfactorily,’ we (EVO) were told.

[waboom]

Exactly what technology these cars will contain is a closely guarded secret, but our source said they won’t feature lithium-ion batteries like the Tesla, nor in-wheel motors like the Lightning. ‘We’ve been doing trials for the past nine years and haven’t got either to work satisfactorily,’ we (EVO) were told.

I wish they would elaborate on what exactly they found unsatisfactory. Was it reliability, power output, the whole thing catastrophically failed when they hit a pothole? Explaining what they didn't think worked well would help us peasants better understand the challenges in this evolving technology.

[WarpedOne]

LiIon batteries in 1999?
I'm not supprised results were not satisfactory.

[WarpedOne]

Siemens in-wheel motors with integrated disc brakes - eCorner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPSoNfmuBXc

On thought: heat
How do you cool the brakes and motor? There is hardly any space left for air flow.

[rogwild]

Siemens in-wheel motors with integrated disc brakes - eCorner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPSoNfmuBXc

On thought: heat
How do you cool the brakes and motor? There is hardly any space left for air flow.

I believe the 'original' concept for the V~1 (when they were talking about Hub Motors), was a 'Water Cooling' system for the Q100.

[RAN]

I hadn't heard of the Siemens motors before... They incorporate disc brakes, which would make them easier to be accepted with current legislation, but a) they're not necessary for proper braking, and b) as you say, they generate an awful lot of heat into an enclosed area. It seems it would take a lot of additional cooling hardware and the added weight/complexity of it to keep these motors from melting.

It's nice to see another company working on them though :-{)]

[RAN]

Exactly what technology these cars will contain is a closely guarded secret, but our source said they won’t feature lithium-ion batteries like the Tesla, nor in-wheel motors like the Lightning. ‘We’ve been doing trials for the past nine years and haven’t got either to work satisfactorily,’ we (EVO) were told.
I wish they would elaborate on what exactly they found unsatisfactory. Was it reliability, power output, the whole thing catastrophically failed when they hit a pothole? Explaining what they didn't think worked well would help us peasants better understand the challenges in this evolving technology.

This from the company that's pushing for hydrogen :rolleyes:

[ziggy951]

Flinstone's style FTW!










Z