Nothing to talk about :-(

[Derwin]

Is it just me, or is there absolutely nothing to talk about anymore regarding Venture Vehicles. This is a real bummer, but it seems to be the case with no information coming out of the company. :(

Derwin

P.S. I figured maybe we could talk about having nothing to talk about, which is the purpose of this thread! wh;aa;aa;t1

[RAN]

Is it just me, or is there absolutely nothing to talk about anymore regarding Venture Vehicles. This is a real bummer, but it seems to be the case with no information coming out of the company. :(

Derwin

Uh, I think that's been our point all along Derwin :-{)]

[Derwin]

Yeah, I know, RAN. It just has really been getting to me over the past few days. I mean, really...... How can we have an active club with participating members if Venture Vehicles isn't even giving us a few morsels here or there to munch on. It's extremely discouraging to say the least.

[RAN]

Maybe the slogan should be "Where Alternative Vehicle Enthusiasts Gather" du:n:n:o(

[ziggy951]

Is it just me, or is there absolutely nothing to talk about anymore regarding Venture Vehicles.


So...are you priming us for a secret "big release" on Monday?



Had to ask :)


Z

[Charles]

Derwin,

This was exactly why I was hoping that you would broaden the scope of the club and possibly re-name it. There are may concept vehicles out there which appear to be more creative than the V1 and deserve more visibility. Several of the club members have highlighted companies that I'd never heard of, in particular Revolution Motors who although being a spin-off of a larger company seem to still have some independence and hence are prepared to talk to us. Our devotion to VV reminds me of 'Fever Pitch' where a guy is obsessed with the Boston Red Sox and sees reality when he's in a bar commiserating with some friends after losing a game and he sees some of the Boston players laughing and joking over the dinner table. We're just like the friends. We have more passion from VV than Ian and Howard. I'm not saying they don't want to see the vehicle on the road but in the end it's just a business to them.

[WarpedOne]

Has anyone seen an add for used Carver One somewhere? I am toying with an idea of converting one into pure EV.

Current idea:
- I'd use smaller rear wheels (145 / 70 R12)
- 2 PMG 132 (http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/perm132.htm) motors @72V, one per each rear wheel, giving arund 60HP max, 16HP const
- two sets of 3,4 : 1 reduction gears (one per wheel), top speed 55mph
- 2 Altrax 7245 (http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_AXE.html) motor controllers (one per motor)
- ThunderSky LiFePo batteries, 25pcs of TS-LFP160AHA (http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200871782241.pdf) in series, weighting around 150kg, 400A peak current would translate into 2,5C peak discharge. Average and normal discharge rate should be under 1C. Such a pack would hold around 12,8kWh of energy and 100Wh/mile average consumption would give some 120 miles of range
- I would remove rear mechanical brakes and only keep front hydraulic brake without servo (if there is one in Carver One at all)
- I would enable regen braking controlled via brake pedal - light step would only engage regen braking, harder step would also engage front mechanical brakes
- 3kW zivan charger, about 4hours for complete charge at 220V
- I'd probably need an electric pump for DVC system or is it already electric?
- I would also need a DC-DC converter

I'm not sure this would work but it's a start :)
Comments?

[WarpedOne]

Price:
- 2 x Perm 132 : 1000 USD
- 2 x controllers : 1000 USD
- 24 x 160Ah TS batteries : 9000 USD
- charger : Zivan NG5 (4.3 kW): 1,450 USD

- battery balancers : 24 x ???
- used (broken) Carver One : ???

Alltrax controllers don't offer regen :(
There is Sevcon Millipak 4QD which does (450USD per piece), but it is only 48V system. With Perm 132 this would only give around 30HP max or around 10HP constant power. A bit on the low side :|

[Derwin]

Derwin,

This was exactly why I was hoping that you would broaden the scope of the club and possibly re-name it...

Yeah, believe it or not, you are not the first to suggest that. But I think we should remain a club who has the Venture Vehicle product at it's core. As you know, we have been talking about all sorts of other projects and alternative vehicles, and this will certainly continue. But, to tell you the truth, none of them really excite me as much as what Venture Vehicles is working on.

At least for now, lets keep the name and the "core" of this club centered around Venture Vehicles. But I definately think this can/will change IF the company, i.e. Ian, doesn't open up very soon and release some information. I'm going to have a wait and see attitude for the time being.

Derwin

[Derwin]

Well, since a few of you have mentioned it, I thought I would put up a poll in this thread regarding who we SHOULD be as a club. If you think that we are just fine being a club centered around the Venture Vehicle company, while still discussing ALL matters pertaining to alternative transportation, then vote that way. But if you feel we should simply be a club that just has Alternative Transportation in general as its center, with NO connection at all to Venture Vehicles, then you can vote that way.

I will say that we already discuss Alternative Transportation and technology in the club all the time. Heck, recently this is all we have had to talk about! So I'm just basically interested to know how you all feel about keeping this a club centered around Venture Vehicles or not. This poll is NOT binding, and does not mean we will necessarily go in that direction, but I thought it would be nice to know what you all think.

Thanks.

Derwin

[RAN]

For now, I voted to keep it the way it is.
If we haven't had any word from VV by the end of the year, then maybe we'd want to consider making a change in 2009.

[rogwild]

Well with 'nothing' to talk about from Vv, 'other vehicles' are about all we get information to discuss, but might as well 'stick in there' until they provide some 'Update' or go 'POOF"!

Looks like the FTR Forum has already 'degenerated' into a Political Discussion Forum.

[MVRacing]

I'm all for keeping it as is. I do enjoy the altenate vehicles, but for the most part they just make me want the VV all the more. So far, only the Dagne has captured my interest to even consider another three wheeler besides the VV, but I think it will be years before it makes it into production as anything other than a kit. I believe they will run into the same delays and stumbling blocks as Ian has.

[MVRacing]

As to "Nothing to Talk About" .... Well VV specific, that is true. I still like to keep up with battery, motor, controller, etc improvements that our members find that may apply to the V1, or even the V2.

[Derwin]

Thanks to those who have voted so far. If you did NOT vote, please take the time to do so. I would really like to know what everybody thinks in regards to this poll.

As we all know, there is a LARGE amount to talk about in regards to alternative transportation and technologies in general. But this poll and thread is about VENTURE VEHICLES in particular. Hopefully we will soon be able to discuss things relating specifically to them, but we may be in for a much longer wait..... o:h"we"ll1

Derwin

[meckman1]

Usually when I talk to people about emerging auto tech, I point them here first for info on new vehicles of all sorts. Then I send them to the VV site to show them the V1. Do others do this? Just curious...

[AKP23]

I second RAN's idea. Let's finish out the year. If we have not heard anything by Jan '09, let's consider changing to a generic transportation club, discussing things as we do now. It might even tickle Ian's conscience about abandoning us in the dark like this.

[waboom]

This isn't the longest stretch that VV has "gone silent", is it? I thought there was a longer one right before the NY auto show and Good Morning America appearance.

[westonlgray]

I would vote that we should keep the same name unless we haven't heard anything from VV and a comparable vehicle comes out like the Dagne. By comparable, I don't mean a Toyota Prius that gets 100 MPG (when you assume one tank of gas and a full battery).

[bird2brain]

I love the fact that we have an alternative forum to discuss VV and everything else. The VV Forum should just go silent. If we all post no more and discuss alternatives here, maybe that will act as a kick in the pants to VV to show some action.

If Moller posts again before VV, I'll make some noise. ;-)

[RAN]

Good idea B2B.
I stopped posting there months ago... and only went back last week to make a couple posts in the Dagne thread there :-{)]

[rogwild]

If Moller posts again before VV, I'll make some noise. ;-)

Well B2B, here is an Official Press Release from Moller; AFTER Vv and Ian went 'Silent'!

http://www.moller.com/files/Volantor_Production_On-track.pdf

And they have an offical Aug 2008 Newsletter out also.

http://www.moller.com/news.htm

[AZEqualizer]

I was just going to ignore all of this but in the words of that great Philosopher Popeye ... "I had all I can stands .. I can't stand no more..."

So I am posting here what I posted on the FTR site.

And a large mass of people seem to want to threaten, be redundant, bully, plead, be combative, spam, whine, troll, etc. Just like most development forums (games, vehicles what ever).

Remember in your "shoot the messenger." That is what Ian is ... the VP of Engineering and founder. Not the CEO, Not the head of marketing, Not the whole board of the corporation. Not the people that hold the purse strings. He is the messenger (and VP Engineering) of and has to follow what the corporation feels is the correct method to obtain the money, build the product, develop the product and put the product out ... without someone else stealing their funding or ideas.

Because all of us here have nothing invested in the corporation and most would jump ship in an instant.... if the right thing came out at the right price ... and some have lower expectations than that.

So, do like me and read the RSS feed with a quick scan if anything gets reported here or elsewhere fine if not ... that's the breaks... Or you can leave or what ever - but once your posts are no longer constructive they no longer matter because they become noise.

The V1 will either come out or it won't just like all the other promised vehicle tech that is supposed to come out 2010-2011. Choose to believe or don't ... the proof is when you can buy it ... if you can afford to buy it.

But you have to ask yourself ... do you just make noise?

So if there is no news talk about other things ... You are living in exciting times lots of cool stuff to talk about if you look for it.. Live the curse don't make it worse.

Just in case someone didn't get it the curse is "May you live in exciting times."

[Derwin]

AZE..... I have been waiting for you to chime in on this, and I really thank God that you finally did.

All I can say in response to your post is... Amen, Amen, Amen, and Amen!

Thank you for bringing some good old common sense into this discussion.

Derwin

[RAN]

I love it when the humorless get involved.

The "shoot the messenger" comment was made by rogwild to byteware in response to Derwin's reply to byteware. It had nothing to do with Ian, his position, or anything else.

You're just making your own kind of noise. Don't pretend that it's any better than anyone else's.

And the curse is, "May you live in interesting times."

[Derwin]

I agree, RAN, that the "shoot the messenger" comment was aimed at me by rogwild. And that makes me as mad as hell! If rogwild would care to READ what the posts were that byteware had made, he would see the truth. I was simply expressing a reasonable opinion about being in a "wait and see" mode in regards to Venture Vehicles. I even went on to say that we may all find out that they fail, and we just don't know. But byteware had to pick apart what I posted in order to make himself look good. BYTEWARE WAS ATTACKING ME, but our dare friend rogwild had to say that I was the one attacking byteware. Total and complete crap.

All AZE posted was a reasonable statement about waiting and seeing what happens. Why is that "noise"? What is so unreasonable about taking a wait and see position? And, on the flip side, why is it to be considered reasonable to post negative things about the company? Why can't we just sit back and see what happens? Isn't that reasonable?

I'm telling ya, I am getting to the point where I just don't understand what is in the minds of people anymore. I really don't.

Derwin

[Jack Willard]

Yep. Yep. Yep. If ya's got nutin to say nice, then don't say nutin! =y: Doomsayers beware. I'm watchin YOU! ypslj:kes;7(

[rogwild]

When is the TRUTH ever 'unreasonable'?

Show me ONE untrue or false statement that I made.

[Derwin]

Rog, Are these the "facts" you are talking about..... Ian has not given us a substantial update in a long time.... And, yes, Ian has indeed gone back on his word several times about keeping the public updated. And, Yes, projected dates for certain things have not been met. Are these the facts you are referring to? O.K. So what?

Are you and I anything more than spectators in this entire process? No. We are actually very fortunate people who happened to trip over the Venture Vehicle project, and be blessed with some "inside" information over the past couple years. We SHOULD be THANKFUL for being allowed to be a part of this.

I just don't understand how being NEGATIVE accomplishes anything. Why do you and byteware, and others, feel the need to rag on Venture Vehicles at every turn? Why not simply sit back and see how this all unfolds. That seems reasonable, doesn't it? Why spew out negativity about the company? The whole negative attitude towards Venture Vehicles is what I don't understand. This is really at the CORE of what I have been saying.

Derwin

[tugboatwilly]

What AZE said.

[rogwild]

OK, unfortunately the "facts" that you listed don't paint a very POSITIVE view. Care to try again with something that might be 'uplifting and positive'?

In fact, many of your posts over the past month or so have not been too 'inspirational', but I don't single YOU out for not 'keeping the faith'. I was asking for some 'logical alternative' reasons for Vv NOT to announce when they have their 'ALPHA prototype' running, but nobody has submitted any.

[Derwin]

Well, rogwild, I Have indeed allowed all of you negative naysayers to affect me over the past several months. But I am now finished with that. I'll just post this message that I posted to the company forum. I think it is the best answer to your question....

Rog, I guess you are missing the point. Nobody "owes" you an explanation for anything. You and I are GUESTS of the company to this forum. We are here to watch this thing unfold.


My point is simple... If they get this vehicle into production, that will be great. And if they fail miserably, I guess we will all be disappointed. You are not being "brutally realistic" in my opinion, you are being brutally negative. Nobody is asking you or me to have "faith" in the company, or anything that even resembles that. But I do think it is reasonable to ask people to sit back and watch this unfold without clouding the air with a bunch of negative attacks against the company. Have they made mistakes? Sure! But who are we to judge them? You ever hear the saying "Walk a mile in my moccasins"? It's easy to sit on the sidelines and throw stones at those that are actually IN THE ARENA doing things. But it is not prudent.


It's easy for you and I to sit on the sidelines while this is all being done. We can sit back and criticize every aspect of the project, and be negative about not receiving updates. OR, we can simply sit back and watch. Either they will succeed, or they will fail. No amount of negative posting is going to save the project.
Nobody needs to offer up any "plausible" reason for the blackout, though I am sure Ian could come up with a few if they truly are succeeding. But lets say, for the sake of argument, that Venture Vehicles is indeed faltering, and they have run into insurmountable obstacles. Let's say that what you are saying is absolutely true, and that the company is collapsing as we speak, and the V1 project is now dead. Let's just say this is all true as of this moment.


What are you accomplishing by posting your negative comments? Do you post them just to let everybody know how brilliant you are? What is the real reason? What do you wish to achieve?


Now, lets say that the project is really going just fine, and for some reason Ian is simply unable to make it public. In that case, you and I will make ourselves look like inpatient fools who acted like children when they didn't get what they wanted, WHEN they wanted it.


Why do you need a "ray of hope" in order to be positive? What I am asking is that you HOPE that they succeed. Is that so bad? Like I said earlier, I can HOPE that you are a success in your life, and have a prosperous future. This does not mean that I have one bit of "faith" that you actually will. I am just expressing my DESIRE that you succeed.



THIS IS ALL I AM DOING IN REGARDS TO VENTURE VEHICLES..... I DESIRE THAT THEY SUCCEED. If they don't, so be it. I have lost absolutely nothing in the process.


Derwin

[randi]

Very well put--and, my sentiments entirely. I can't add too much to that.:)

Bravo, Derwin!