EEStor "Possible" fantastic news?!?!?!

[ziggy951]

EEStor CEO, Dick Weir has confirmed that it has "landed another contract, a very substantial contract with another company" for exclusive rights to the global two and three wheeled vehicle market that is "signed, sealed and delivered." Weir went on to say, "We're just waiting for them to put out a press release on it. I can't say the name of the company, we'll let them announce that."


http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/



Monday, September 29, 2008
EEStor Lands New Contract

EEStor CEO, Dick Weir has confirmed that it has "landed another contract, a very substantial contract with another company" for exclusive rights to the global two and three wheeled vehicle market that is "signed, sealed and delivered." Weir went on to say, "We're just waiting for them to put out a press release on it. I can't say the name of the company, we'll let them announce that."

Complete Details including further interview questions to be posted later today. For discussion, visit TheEEStory.com

Previously, EEStor has signed agreements with Zenn Motor Company and Lockheed Martin.

Posted by b at 9:33 AM 0 comments
Labels: EEStor, zenn motor company


Z

[Derwin]

Sounds promising. I will keep my fingers crossed that this has something to do with Venture Vehicles. Hopefully we will find out soon.

Derwin

[rogwild]

Doubt that it would be Venture Vehicles (since they don't make any 2-wheeled vehicles). :(

Trying to think of any major manufacturer that makes both 2 AND 3-Wheeled electric/hybrid vehicles and about the only one that comes to mind would be Piaggio with their new 'HybridS', unless Bombardier (also a Canadian Company) is planning to have an EV or Hybrid for their Motorcycles, Trikes, and ATV's.:IDEA:

[ziggy951]

Technically not even VV makes any 3 wheel vehicles lol. The good news I was referring to is that another contract is inked over Eestor. That in an of itself is good news to me. I dont really care what company has it, other than its not a company that will supress it somhow. Now, if it were VV that somehow got this contract I would be quite excited for the V1. Hopefully it is some company like Honda. That would be sweet.




Z

[RAN]

Personally, I don't like seeing all these "exclusive contracts" floating around. ZENN is in no hurry to start releasing EEStor units for individual conversions of autos... now some company is going to tie up using them for 3 wheelers too.

It does make it sound more like EEStor's for real, but it won't matter much if most manufacturers/conversion houses can't get hold of them.

[ziggy951]

It would increase the auto theft industry by 1000% overnight. The road from the factory to the distributors would be patrolled by hijackers and the trucks carrying them would be armed with small military forces. Hell, Ill probably buy a couple and "total"thu:mbs:up:22 them and take out the batteries to use for other stuff...like oh I dont know, the conversion sitting in my garage waiting for a battery source. They may be doing it to solidify agreements and focus on specific output models but they have no idea what side effects will come of it. If they truelly allow for solitary agreements then those are litterally the only companies, talking transportation industry here, that will survive. There is no way to compete with such a cheap energy source, especially if the buyer has a "free form" output of energy like solar or wind energy. It is borderline something the US govt will disallow a pattent on..they have done it before btw.

What I would have done is produce a model line with varrying sizs and outputs. You could do a line for small portable electronics, small vehicles, large vehicles, and industrial or home lines. Let everyone else figure out how to adapt it to their devices. Think about how much good would come from having a truelly uniform power source. Hopefully they wont abuse the power, I am hoping, they will obtain.




Z

[danbucks]

*one* more currently anonymous contract for EEStor is fantastic news? I am glad to see an enthusiast, but this is hardly fantastic. I am sure EEStor - missing major lofty goals or no - will do quite fine, but it is hardly the only game in town.
First, EEStor has never been a producer of a energy source. They are the producer of a energy *storage* (actually buffer, not a [long-term] storage) device.
Second, only time will tell how cheap mass producing this device is - and, even if it's cheap, there are many ways to compete with it (including a handful of companies building the same exact device, btw - a device which has been around for a very, very long time, I might add ... just not at the E density/weight currently claimed). Examples are literally everywhere on this forum.
A total digression, but your statement on the US govt disallowing a pattent [sic] - that makes no sense - are you suggesting they would because "no one can compete"?
Perhaps you've forgotten the single and only purpose for patents in the first place.

"deals" and patents are designed to protect the *company*, not the consumer. That is their purpose.

[rogwild]

Seems that a NEW company, — Light Electric Vehicles Company (LightEVs) of Eugene, Oregon; designed to sell electric motor / power components to 'end users' and manufactures is the 'Winner' of the contract.
They also said:
"we are considering a three-wheel two-passenger electric vehicle which could offer EESU options permitting ranges from about 120 miles to over 500 miles on a single charge, and a top speed of over 85 mph.”

Vehicle manufacturers of two and three wheel vehicles, interested in using this technology, should contact us via the addresses and/or phone number indicated above.

[danbucks]

Thanks for the link rogwild.
Wow, this company is new - so spanking new, it appears, their website is nothing more than this press release? LOL.
EEStor must be getting a major "deal" out of this one :)

[RAN]

EEStor just bothers me. If they really had the Holy Grail, the big 3 (4,5,6.....) would have assured themselves of ample supply lines, and assured EEStor of whatever funds they needed. I thought the agreement with Zenn was a little strange, but this one is even weirder.

I'm getting really cynical these days. It feels like we're no closer to having access to better batteries and motors now than we were a year ago. A year ago, EEStor was going to have product out NOW. Now that now is here, they'll be out "next year."

[ziggy951]

So ..you dis me and call me ignorant then admit to not even knowing what the Eestor device does, then you critique an entire company by a website that is intentionally plane and practically empty? I realize that my wording was a bit off, but sheesh. Well, that was a productive discussion.

The patent comment by the way was a joke about the government and its infinite wisdom. I realize that the EEstor device doesnt CREATE energy as that is not a problem, hasnt been for about 100 years or more. If it is true it is the solution to the storage of energy for electric vehicles and there are NO other games in town. The only thing close is some of the nano stuff that is also being researched, but its a close second. Please tell me you arent comparing the Eestor device to a capacitor...that would just be ludicrous as it only loosly resembles the technology.



Z

[Derwin]

Z.... Who were you referring to in regards to "dissing" you? I try to keep a tight ship in regards to this.

Derwin

[danbucks]

I certainly hope not me. I don't think I "dissed" anyone in my post - I merely set the record straight - in vain it appears, since Z is not convinced there are other games in town.

I don't think anyone called Z ignorant, for sure.
Is there a missing post?

[ziggy951]

*one* more currently anonymous contract for EEStor is fantastic news? I am glad to see an enthusiast, but this is hardly fantastic. I am sure EEStor - missing major lofty goals or no - will do quite fine, but it is hardly the only game in town.
First, EEStor has never been a producer of a energy source. They are the producer of a energy *storage* (actually buffer, not a [long-term] storage) device.
Second, only time will tell how cheap mass producing this device is - and, even if it's cheap, there are many ways to compete with it (including a handful of companies building the same exact device, btw - a device which has been around for a very, very long time, I might add ... just not at the E density/weight currently claimed). Examples are literally everywhere on this forum.
A total digression, but your statement on the US govt disallowing a pattent [sic] - that makes no sense - are you suggesting they would because "no one can compete"?
Perhaps you've forgotten the single and only purpose for patents in the first place.

"deals" and patents are designed to protect the *company*, not the consumer. That is their purpose.

The post above this one as well seems the same.


Maybe I am accustomed to more tactful responses, or maybe its because Im a bit down because of stomach problems today, but words like that tend to seem condescending to me. Not that I am looking for any kind of moderation or anything.

Regardless, what else is there that can support the same energy density at the same weight and size that the supposed, note I say supposed, Eestor device? You can use other speculative devices or tech as well. The guys at MIT seem to have something close but its not all that close. Please inform me since I am so ignorant to the plethora of electrical storage devices that are or will be available that can be used in vehicles and bought at a reasonable cost within the next decade.




Z

[Derwin]

Zig, I think I know how you are feeling. I just tried a new Chinese restaurant yesterday, and had some chop suey, and I've had a stomach ache all day today! So I can feel your pain! Hey, I hope you are feeling better soon.

But the fact that Ian and Venture Vehicles has decided to not release any information for months now, has given MANY club members a stomach ache. A lot of us are on edge, and it seems it isn't getting any better. Hopefully we can muddle through and talk about all of these subjects in a civil manner without putting anybody down. I know I've been guilty of "snapping" at some people in the past, and I regretted it.

Thanks for posting this information. It is really interesting.

Derwin

[RAN]

In Ziggy's defense, the thread title says "Possible" fantastic news?!?!?!?! I think there's room there to cut him some slack.

Despite my cynicism, I hope the EEStor device is 100% real. I still have reservations about their exclusive relationships with Very Small Players in the worldwide scheme of things, but, if it means Zenn and LightEVs make an extra dollar on every unit sold, and they don't impede the wider distribution of EEStor units, then I can live with it. What bothers me is if they are in control of how the devices are distributed to anyone other than themselves.

Did anyone see any time limit on the exclusivity of these agreements? This could get very grim very quickly.

BTW, bad food is going around... my girlfriend in England just had the same thing happen Saturday night at a nice restaurant.

[Derwin]

BTW, bad food is going around... my girlfriend in England just had the same thing happen Saturday night at a nice restaurant.

Your girlfriend in England? Wow! Talk about a long distance romance!

[danbucks]

Z, I hope it is as you say that perhaps it is your stomach ache talking, and that you feel better, because my post is nothing except corrections/highlights. If anyone should feel burned, it should be me, for being snapped at for no apparent reason.

To answer your question, next gen batteries should in fact match the supposed energy density of UCs like EEStor's. Only time will tell. Some also have a life that matches UCs (well match long enough given the life a a vehicle in general).

I personally am a huge fan of UCs. They have a future. Sure they like to explode, and sure, they like to leak charge, and sure they usually can't funtion well in high heat, but they have a future - at worst, as an electrical buffer in vehicles. They are not the only game in town:

Also note that there are other alternative ideas that are far, far more efficient - e.g. if one removes air completely, the energy required is only to overcome rolling resistence - such a low energy requirement that the energy source is almost irrelevant (most likely electricity). ... but there's a reason this concept haven't come to fruition.
The reason is politics and cost are the only things (sad, but true) that matter.
Energy density is less important.

[Derwin]

Z, I hope it is as you say that perhaps it is your stomach ache talking, and that you feel better, because my post is nothing except corrections/highlights. If anyone should feel burned, it should be me, for being snapped at for no apparent reason.

Now who in the world "snapped" at you, danbucks?

[danbucks]

That would be Z. I consider someone accusing me (what a surprise - I didn't even think it was me) of calling them ignorant (among other things - I would never use such a judgmental term... that is not a correction, but a judgement) when evidence shows that is far from the truth - a snap.
But I consider this dropped/water under the bridge if others will.

[Derwin]

Good grief..... I think I'm getting confused with all of this! First zig thought you downed him, then you thought zig snapped at you. Well, the only reason I posted the question is because I thought that YOU thought that I snapped at you, so I had to try and clear it up.

O.K. now that I kind of understand what's going on, you can return to your conversation! Sorry for the intrusion! :-)

Derwin

[danbucks]

Holy mackerel!
Ok, it's definitely time for a beer.
:Beer:

[Mark Tomlinson]

EEStor just bothers me. If they really had the Holy Grail, the big 3 (4,5,6.....) would have assured themselves of ample supply lines, and assured EEStor of whatever funds they needed. I thought the agreement with Zenn was a little strange, but this one is even weirder.

I'm getting really cynical these days. It feels like we're no closer to having access to better batteries and motors now than we were a year ago. A year ago, EEStor was going to have product out NOW. Now that now is here, they'll be out "next year."
I'm in agreement with you on this one; EEStor bothers me, too. Every case built in their defense has an equally compelling counter argument. And every argument that they are a sham has an undeniable rebuttal. For instance, the contract they have with Lockheed Martin surely means that they are legit, right? But Lockheed Martin has a lot of money, and they may just be hedging their bets.

Likewise this agreement with LightEV leaves me wondering why GM isn't all over EEStor for the Volt. On the other hand, GM had to introduce something, anything, for their 100th anneversary - not just another promise. GM's future depends on it and they can't gamble.

I, too, was half hoping that EEStor's latest deal was with Venture. But the other half of me wouldn't want more delays while EEStor cranks out press releases of certifications of purity levels and manufaturing capability.

[westonlgray]

Mark,
I agree with you. If VV can produce the V1 soon, they should be able to get enough market share and survive. Then, if new batteries, motors, capacitor storage devices? become available, they can use those to build the next generation. (and maybe sell us previous owners an upgrade kit in the process).

[RAN]

Likewise this agreement with LightEV leaves me wondering why GM isn't all over EEStor for the Volt. On the other hand, GM had to introduce something, anything, for their 100th anneversary - not just another promise. GM's future depends on it and they can't gamble.

I understand that GM couldn't gamble on EEStor in time for the Volt's design team to avoid designing around it, but, like you, if I was GM, I'd be all over EEStor to insure having them just ASAP, if I thought there was anything to them.

On the other hand, it seems GM has all but abandoned hub motors (http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030820/FREE/308200704&SearchID=73297443301886), after proclaiming, back in 2003, that they were The Future.

I can feel the cynicism returning...

[westonlgray]

GM isn't the only one to have abandoned hub motors...

They are heavy and they are in the wheels. Just imagine that that would do to the car when hitting bumps. That is a lot of momentum in the wheels. I would also be concerned with the water and other things that fly around the wheels. Plus, having large power cables that are more exposed to flying debris, etc... I love the idea of a hub motor and was disappointed when VV decided not to use them, but after reflection, it might be worth it to have one motor and a hub... at least for now.

[AZEqualizer]

This was posted over at AutoBlogGreen: (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/24/eestor-gets-patent-for-eesu-we-get-some-details/)

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/12/eestor_patent.jpg
We've finally got some real information regarding EEStor (http://www.autobloggreen.com/supersearch/?q=eestor&sort=date)'s highly secretive capacitor-based energy storage system, though it's not exactly coming from the company itself. It seems that EEStor recently filed for patents of its new technology, which centers around a core of aluminum coated barium titanate powder immersed in a polyethylene terephthalate plastic matrix, and they've now been granted those patents. The best part for those of us who've been following the company's developments is that the patent office has released detailed information regarding what makes it all tick.

We'll leave it up to you if you want to read through the whole document, but here are a few salient points for your consideration. The EEStor EESU would weigh just 282-pounds, yet would carry as much juice as the lithium ion battery pack that's currently in use by Tesla Motors for its Roadster. Just as much power but nearly four-times lighter? That's impressive. Even better, EEStor claims that its EESU's performance never degrades with use and would potentially last forever. Great. We'll take two, and we're not the only ones excited.

Here is a link to the patent file (http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat7466536.pdf).

[Derwin]

Looks pretty interesting.

Great find, AZE! thu:mbs:up:22

Derwin

[ziggy951]

I want a pallet full please! Wait make that two! Lets see...one for my sports car conversion, 1 for my wife's daily driver, 3 for the house (remember to order those wind turbines next week), 1 scaled down but "as large as possible" version for my custom modified PersuEV Ziggy Edition...1 for my laptop, 1 for my mobile phone, 1 for each remote in my house, 1 for each of my son's annoying as heck electric toys, and 1 for each item I will ever buy that requires portable electrical power.

Patents like this cost more than $10,000. I am not throwing that number out as I am currently going through the patent process and for a relatively basic electronic device and a quality lawyer that doesnt cost an arm and a leg it is costing me about $7-10k. Now that they have gotten an actual patent, rather than patent pending, I am more confident they are the real deal and will not be some type of futuristic vaporware. Here's hoping!



Z

[MVRacing]

=y: OK, first thing I'm going to do is add that 31,352nd capacitor so I can beat all you all =y:

Serious post to follow after I wade thru the patent filing papers...thanks AZE for posting that link!

[MVRacing]

Ok, I've spent hours going over the patent and most of the reference material....
IMHO it is still vaporware until they have given an EESU's to someone to test.

The patent looks great - it even states that 10 EESU's of 52.220KWh were tested for leakage, and voltage break down after 1,000,000 charge & discharge cycles with minimal degradation of capabilities. Manufacturing processes are described and it appears that off the shelf ovens, powdering equipment, and ink printers are used, and that the time/cost to manufacture is fairly low per unit. The patent also mentions using sized EESU's for grid energy storage possibilities - mainly solar and wind generated power.

Now the down side - - Just because something is patented doesn't mean it works or even exists! A couple of the super conductor blogs have "experts" that still (as of 22Dec) say it isn't possible.

It does seem strange to me that they only have contracts with ZEN and a bike manufacturer. Zen's EESU's delivery schedule has slipped numerous times and is now set for spring 2009.

Me- I'm hoping it is viable and prototypes are delivered soon...it is world changing technology.

[MVRacing]

A couple other details from the patent ... the EESU stores 52.220KWh at 3500volts, with case and attachments it weighs 282 lbs and is 2.6 cu ft. Charge time 2 to 6 minutes (it did not specify voltage or amps).

Sigh ... if it's only true!!

[Mark Tomlinson]

It seems that EEStor recently filed for patents of its new technology, which centers around a core of aluminum coated barium titanate powder immersed in a polyethylene terephthalate plastic matrix...Doh! Of course - now it all makes sense!

[Mark Tomlinson]

... It does seem strange to me that they only have contracts with ZEN and a bike manufacturer. ...
Let's not forget the deal they have with Lockheed Martin. Although, as previously discussed, Lockheed Martin has enough money they can probably absorb more risk.

[ziggy951]

Here is a very interesting link that I found in my inbox this morning. Its about a patent that Lockheed has filed. In that patent it mentions the use of an Eestor type device. Pretty futuristic stuff....oh wait..I guess we are now IN the future. First thing I thought about, after reading the article, is taht we are going to have storm troopers running around soon.


http://www.ecofriendlymag.com/sustainable-transporation-and-alternative-fuel/lockheed-names-eestor-in-body-armor-patent/





Z

[westonlgray]

patents don't mean that there is a working prototype though, only a concept that someone thinks they could build.

[PHEVadvocate]

I would like to know if they verified the capacitance at the 3500 voltage. With that strong of a “e” field the capacitor may be saturated and not hold the energy they think it will. du:n:n:o(

[MVRacing]

I would like to know if they verified the capacitance at the 3500 voltage. With that strong of a “e” field the capacitor may be saturated and not hold the energy they think it will. du:n:n:o(


If you believe the test data in the patent, it did very well. Have you looked at it? According to the patent (again, if it can be believed) they tested 10 full EESU's
Can't wait to see a third party test/verification!

[PHEVadvocate]

Yes, MVRacing I read the patient and I'm an electrical engineer with patents of my own. A patient is just like something published on the web; it does not mean it is true or workable. Read the patient very carefully, I detected too much spin for my tastes.

On page 10 they only said, it has the capability of storing 55.22 kWh of energy, not that they have done it. They only tested 10 components (capacitive layers?) not 10 EESU's. If they tested full 10 EESU’s why would they need to multiply the leakage current by 31,351?

They did not state the voltage at which the capacitance was measured or how much energy was stored at 3500 V. If they had 10 functional capacitor layers, surely they could check how much energy one layer could store. Why not measure the energy stored by one layer and then multiply it by 31,351 like they did for the leakage current? Isn’t measuring the energy stored just as important as the leakage? Surely they could have measured the energy in and out for at least one of the 100,000 cycles?

On page 11 they say the relative permittivity is stable, but they did not say the capacitance is stable. I wonder why?

This patent is also a process patent and the parameters are too narrow to offer any real protection. It reads more like sales literature too. It is not how I would write a patent, I would go for the broadest protection.

I would love for this to be true and practical, but why haven’t they demonstrated an EESU or even a partial one of a few layers yet? :confused:

Sorry to be so negative, but electrical energy storage is a hot field and it draws a lot of quick buck artists. :COP:

[AZEqualizer]

This was published over at CleanBreak: (http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/12/29/lockheed-names-eestor-in-body-armor-patent/)
Lockheed names EEStor in “body armor” patent

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/images/PCT-IMAGES/24122008/US2008059684_24122008_gz_en.x4-b.jpg
A new Lockheed Martin patent (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/fetch.jsp?SEARCH_IA=US2008059684&DBSELECT=PCT&C=00&TOTAL=782&IDB=0&TYPE_FIELD=256&SERVER_TYPE=19-00&QUERY=Lockheed&ELEMENT_SET=B&START=1&SORT=41248281-KEY&RESULT=1&DISP=25&FORM=SEP-0%2FHITNUM%2CB-ENG%2CDP%2CMC%2CAN%2CPA%2CABSUM-ENG&IDOC=1778513&IA=US2008059684&LANG=ENG&DISPLAY=STATUS) published last week by the World Intellectual Property Organization gives us a glimpse of the miltary contractor’s relationship (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2008/010908_LockheedMartinSignsAgreement.html) with Cedar Park, Tex.-based EEStor. It could also explain why EEStor has been reluctant so far to reveal its progress.

Lockheed’s patent details plans for “body armor having an electrical energy storage unit formed as a layer that substantially conforms to an armor plate.” According to the document, the electrical energy storage layer has “a plurality of sections.” The idea being that if one section is damaged in combat the other sections would remain operable. Two or more sections can be electrically coupled, either in parallel or series. Electrical connectors would “provide access to electrical power stored in the electrical energy storage layer.”

The armor would be a form-fitting utility garment worn like a vest. The patent goes on to say the electrical energy storage would be composed of lithium ion polymer batteries, or alternatively “one or more solid state, capacitive, electrical energy storage devices, such as those provided by EEStor Inc. of Cedar Park, Texas… Such solid state electrical energy storage devices comprise calcined composition-modified barium titanate coated with aluminum oxide and calcium magnesium aluminosilicate glass.

It’s been well known that Lockheed was participating in the U.S. Department of Defense’s “Wearable Power Competition (http://www.dod.mil/ddre/prize/rules_doc.html),” which was announced (http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11089)July 2007. And it’s been long suspected that EEStor’s EESU was part of Lockheed’s entry. Indeed, Lockheed’s team leader in the competition – David Hoelscher — is named as co-inventor on the company’s patent. The patent filing confirms the speculation.

[PHEVadvocate]

Another quote from Clean Break:

“The contest winners were announced Oct. 4 and Lockheed didn’t make it to the Top 3 (http://www.dod.mil/ddre/prize/Winners.html). The winners used lithium-ion batteries, fuel cells or some combination of the two. I’m not sure where Lockheed did end up ranking, but the fact it didn’t rank high could raise a few eyebrows about its relationship with EEStor and confidence in the EESU technology.”

What didn't the DoD like, the lightest weight, the highest energy density, the fastest charging time, the infinite life, and no hazardous chemicals (acids, fuels, or flammable materials like lithium that burn really hot)? It must have been a problem with the technology or a whiff of vaporware?

Sorry to be so negative again, but maybe Lockheed decided the money they spent was worth the publicity and a bit of green washing?

PS. Here is my favorite video that shows how hot Lithium can burn: Click here. (http://www.valence.com/technology/battery_safety/battery_safety_video) I would really want body armor with lithium in it. :confused:

[dead deer walking]

Ouch !

[PHEVadvocate]

Here is some more information on EEstor:

http://gm-volt.com/2009/01/04/eestor-gets-a-trademark-patent-on-eesu-and-provides-specs-for-a-24v-eesu/

I realy like Bob's Cheese in the comments.

[PHEVadvocate]

Read post #4 here:

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/09/10/eestors-ultracapacit.html

EEstor is not using the right equation! o:o:p:s12

Can anyone dispute this?

[westonlgray]

It is pretty specific information. It could be right, but I couldn't verify something like this without a lot of reasearch. Common sense dictates that you be skeptical of fantastic claims that come without any evidence. The EEstor has always sounded like a science experiment. If it is anything more, they could at least publish test results without giving away any material secrets.

[rosesj]

EEStor has been working on a high energy capacitor/energy storage system for some time. Back when I first began looking at an alternative vehicle, and found VV, I read about EEStor and have been pseudo-following them ever since that time. Overall, they have been incredibly secretive about what (if anything) they were doing. However, within the last week, they put out some more information about their product, which, if working, would allow for Persu (given ITS engineering) to become a real potential.

EEStor has stated they are in developement (pre-production) of a 52kWh energy storage system weighing less than 300lbs or so. Given this density, it appears that depending on Persu's stats, it could become an almost instant 200 mile EV.

I am NOT endorsing EEStor... and I am still not convinced they have what they are saying they have given that a working model has thus far, not been publically tested NOR confirmed. However, it might be worthwhile for you guys to take a look at the weblog which seems to be keeping the closest tabs on it right now.

Admittadly, there are a TON of cheerleaders over there who can't seem to see any sort of potential reality, but if you wade through all the hype and Utopia, you might get some information which could dramatically effect a VV or whatever they are calling it right now.

http://www.theeestory.com/

I haven't posted since Persu took down the forums. I have only posted here maybe once or twice a long time ago.

[cobraphx]

Yeah,

EEStor will be a game changer if they can get it into volume production. But those that think waiting for the Persu is painful... try following EESor for the last 5 years... EESTor is an even bigger breakthrough than the PH. And it may be even less likely to make it to market as well.

-Matt

[RAN]

Well said Matt. EEStor should package smoke & mirrors instead. They've shown remarkable ability in those areas.

Sooner or later, a device like the EESU will be invented, perfected, and will find it's way into billions of cars. Whether they will be our cars, or our children's cars, or our grandchildren's cars sadly remains to be seen.

[AZEqualizer]

Merged the two threads to keep topic more cohesive.

[PHEVadvocate]

EESTOR is keeping itself alive by releasing incomplete facts. When they state the dielectric permittivity (K’) does not decrease with an increasing electric field E up to their maximum breakdown voltage, then they will have something.
Right now they are dancing around the issue that they goofed.:o

Why won't they release the maximum energy storage measurement of the parts they have built? Because, it does not match their caculations! :zapped1:

[cobraphx]

EESTOR is keeping itself alive by releasing incomplete facts. When they state the dielectric permittivity (K’) does not decrease with an increasing electric field E up to their maximum breakdown voltage, then they will have something.
Right now they are dancing around the issue that they goofed.:o

Why won't they release the maximum energy storage measurement of the parts they have built? Because, it does not match their caculations! :zapped1:

That's one theory, and may well be the right one. Another theory is that there is absolutely no upside for them release information that confirms that the EESU works before they can produce them in mass. Can you name a single benefit to EEStor that would be derived from publicly confirming that the EESU works before volume production begins? If there is no upside to the company why would they do it?

[rogwild]

.....Another theory is that there is absolutely no upside for them release information that confirms that the EESU works before they can produce them in mass. Can you name a single benefit to EEStor that would be derived from publicly confirming that the EESU works before volume production begins? ............
Perhaps to encourage an INVESTOR to put up the funds to build the facility to "produce them in mass". That is unless EEStor already has 'unlimited' funds, and does not require outside revenue to build multi-million dollar production facilities.

[cobraphx]

Rog,

Do you know of any INVESTOR that will fund a project like that without taking an equity stake in the company? EEStor already has at least two other companies (investors) that hold equity shares in the company. Each of these investors has the option to buy more equity. With the current stakeholders all under NDA, EEStor can get this additional funding without publicly confirming that the technology works.

I know I wouldn't want to give up any more equity than I had to if it were my company. I'd want to try to get to production without giving up more than the 20% to 30% equity that I'd already committed. Call me crazy... But losing control of the company I've been building for the last 7+ years when I'm close to commercialization is a pretty unsavory proposition.

[rogwild]

Like I said, IF they (or their current investors/stakeholders) have the money to go into mass production, then there is little benefit (except maybe to sway potential customers toward their technology) in publicly confirming the technology.
But if they still require additional funding, it 'could be' a valid reason to demonstrate their success, 'unsavory' as the proposition may be.

[AZEqualizer]

Autobloggreen posted a press release from Zenn in regards to EEStor units. Hard to tell how much is hype for stock gains and how much is meat [since I fell asleep reading ;)] I kind of felt we are still in the theoretical stage and this is more of a money drive since they are merged at the hip. But You decide here is the link. (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/21/zenn-trust-us-the-eestor-thing-is-totally-cool/#continued)

Note this release has fine print - Example : Readers are cautioned not to place undue reliance on any statements of forward looking information that speak only as of the date of this release.

[JoeU]

AZ That's a catch phrase to relieve them from lawsuits that they are liable for their comments.=y:

[MikeB]

Another leak of information from EEStor:
AllCarsElectric.com (http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1022392_eestor-founder-dick-weir-confirms-esus-presently-being-built-and-once-delivered-to-zenn-by-the-fourth-quarter-all-hell-will-break-loose)

An extensive audio interview with the normally silent Dick Weir, founder of EEStor, has been leaked to the web. The 38 minute interview with an unknown interviewer took place in last month, and his identity has been confirmed by anonymous sources.
....
"We anticipate being in a production base of pre-production units in the fourth quarter this year, (and) I'm already out there putting EESUs together and I'm still in June," he says. "So, it looks like I'm a little ahead of schedule."
And he predicts once ZENN gets and demonstrates its pre production units by the end of this year, "all hell's going to break loose with ZENN and at EEStor."
As always, the technology sounds promising, and it really would change the entire game if it works as advertised, but I won't make any plans until they demonstrate a working unit.

[PHEVadvocate]

The "leaked" information could be a Hoax, with enough obscure technical jargon thrown into create some confusion. There is no quick verification of the “leaked” information. It has physical chemistry and physics claims that I will admit are beyond my current experience. I'm still not sure if they really got around the saturation problem at high voltage, time will tell. Why wouldn't ZENN have done their permittivity testing at the high voltage levels and published the information they did so? It would have put a lot of the doubt to rest.

:confused:

[denisg]

It seems that I saw the almost exact statement made about EEstor signing a contract with an Ev company that will produce two and three wheel vehicles almost a year ago,and no info. yet from the company they signed with.

[MVRacing]

From Green Tech Media

Michael Kanellos August 3, 2009
Ultracapacitors: Your Car’s Little Helper

Ioxus, an ultracapacitor maker, says the devices will start to proliferate in wind farms, cars and other areas. But mostly in a supporting role.


If the battery is the heart of an electric car, the ultracapacitor is shaping up to be the butler.
The fast-charging, fast-discharging devices have largely played on the fringes of the technology market for the last few years, but ultracapacitors could start appearing in larger numbers in commercial products (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/grid-storage-batteries-and-ultracaps-an-8.3b-market-by-2016/). In part, that comes from improvements in the technology and a push among ultracap makers to fine-tune their markets based on how ultracaps behave.
Ultracaps, for instance, likely won't run electric cars on their own, according to Chad Hall, COO of Ioxus, which today released a line of electric double layer capacitors. Although an ultracapacitor can be charged in seconds versus the several hours battery packs can require, the amount to power it would require to charge an ultracapacitor bank big enough to run a car would likely short out your house.
"I don't see that happening for many years," said Hall.
Instead, ultracaps could be used to replace the hydraulic pumps behind power steering or run the electric windows and entertainment systems. Foreign car makers are moving faster at figuring out ways to incorporate ultracaps than U.S. automakers, he noted.
The company is also running trials with a forklift manufacturer to employ ultracapacitors to provide lift power to electric forklifts, which in turn eases the pressure on the battery pack which runs the fork lift. Ultracapacitors could also be used to capture power in regenerative braking cranes (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-next-green-wave-ports/) and perform load balancing tasks at wind farms or utilities.
"If you need to start a motor, an ultracapacitor is a good way to do that," he said. "Ultracapacitors don't have a lot of energy. They are a power component."
Ioxus, which spun out of Custom Electronics, says its ultracapacitors can store about 30 percent more power than competitors and, just as important, are far smaller. Thus, more can be squeezed into a tight space.
Instead of graphene (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ultracapacitors-an-inevitable-component-inside-electric-cars-5517/), a form of carbon some other ultracap companies are examining, the company's devices rely on porous granules of activated charcoal. The more pores, the greater the capacitance.
Hall also noted that Ioxus makes its ultracapacitors in the U.S.

[MVRacing]

REPORT: public demonstrations of EESTOR's sectretive EESU next month? (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/26/report-public-demonstrations-of-eestors-sectretive-eesu-next-m/)

by Sebastian Blanco (http://green.autoblog.com/bloggers/sebastian-blanco/) (RSS feed (http://green.autoblog.com/bloggers/sebastian-blanco/rss.xml)) on Aug 26th, 2009 at 5:57PM
[/URL]

Last month, we got a glimpse inside [URL="http://green.autoblog.com/search/?q=EEStor"]EEStor (http://theeestory.com/topics/2529)'s ultracapacitor progress thanks to a leaked audio clip (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/07/29/eestor-information-overload-not-a-typo-in-leaked-interview-wit/) – admittedly, possibly on purpose – of someone interviewing EEStor CEO Dick Weir. At that time, Weir said that the EESU packs would be coming soon and promised demonstrations for 2010. We might not have to wait even that long for some sort of non-PR proof that the ultracaps work. According to All Cars Electric (http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1034621_eestor-awards-contract-to-polarity-inc-to-produce-eesus-voltage-converter), EEStor has said, "they will prove their technology to the world by the end of September, slightly more than one month from now." We're marking this in our calendars using pencil.

Another bit of news from the audio tape that has since been confirmed is that Polarity Inc. of Rancho Cordova, California, is putting the EESUs (energy storage units) together for ZENN's upcoming EV. Polarity Inc.'s website states (http://www.polarity.net/News):

2009 Awarded contract from EESTOR to integrate Polarity's high power HV to LV converter into EESTOR's EESU that will be used in Zenn Motor Company's small to medium size electric car