Flying Carver

[shooter]

This might suit me!

http://www.pal-v.com/

[Derwin]

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! THIS IS FANTASTIC! THANKS FOR POSTING AND GIVING US THE HEADS-UP! 2thumb:up

http://www.pal-v.com/images/palv.jpg

A futuristic dream becoming reality!

Since Henry Ford built the Model T Ford, people have been dreaming of a vehicle that could drive AND fly. It took almost 90 years before this dream could be realized. Now it will: PAL-V Europe BV is building everybody’s dream in mobility: a full-fledged flying and full-fledged driving vehicle. Your first questions will probably be: How does it work (http://www.pal-v.com/index2.php?page=technology) and why is this suddenly possible now? (http://www.pal-v.com/index2.php?page=why)
[/URL]
PAL-V Europe BV started in 1999 to study many technologies and evaluated various concepts. It made numerous designs and patented all its findings, leading to the PAL-V ONE. The first Personal Air and Land Vehicle (PAL-V) available for anybody.


PAL-V Europe BV combines the recent “tilting car” technology of the [U]Carver (http://www.pal-v.com/index2.php?page=why) with the safest and easiest principle of flying, the gyrocopter. It has the exclusive rights to all the basic patents covering this magnificent concept. In addition, PAL-V Europe BV has patents pending for amongst others a foldable rotor.


After 6 years of concept work, PAL-V Europe BV has now entered the next phase. It is starting to build the first commercial prototype to prove all technologies, to finetune the design, to start-up production and carry out the market launch of the PAL-V ONE.


Since 2004/2005 new European and American regulations allow people to fly the PAL-V with a simple sports aviation license. It takes between 15-25 hours getting a license for flying while driving can be done with a regular car driving license.


PAL-V Europe BV is currently raising the capital necessary for the realization phase.


PAL-V Europe BV is also looking for potential customers that would like to be among the earlier customers. Please let us know (http://www.pal-v.com/index2.php?page=contact) in case you would like to purchase one or more of the first series.

http://www.pal-v.com/images/Tabel_product_1.gifhttp://www.pal-v.com/images/Tabel_product_miles.gif

[wa3wheels]

Wonder how much ?? I really like and would purchase now if priced right.

[rogwild]

Don't worry about the price. this thing will NEVER FLY. Discussed many times on the FTR site:

By 'Dfwaco'=
Yes, it's been mentioned before here:
http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=243
and here:
http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=184
here too:
http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=24
don't forget here:
http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=359
then there's here:
http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=329
not to mention here:
http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=330

http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=536&replies=2#post-10780

http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=359&replies=10#post-5621

The guy behind it has a very 'questionable past, and it would seem to be a hoax or means to raise money from the 'un-informed, ala' Moller.

[Derwin]

I don't believe anybody can categorically state that ANYTHING will "never" happen. That is a statement that has proven to be false throughout history. They told the wright brothers "you will never fly", and there have been many things in history that would not have come to pass if people had this negative attitude towards new technology and/or ideas. Sure, there were times in history when the naysayers were correct, and the proposed item did not work. But it's a far better thing to support new ideas, then to simply say they will "never" work.

Will we ever have a "flying car" that is owned by people throughout America? I would say that you can count on it. Will it be in our lifetimes? Who knows. I sure don't. But I'll always be supportive of a company that is at least REACHING for the stars, no matter how improbable the goal may be.

Derwin

[rogwild]

Derwin, do some 'homework' on the PAL-V, THEN come back and tell us why you think it WILL FLY. Apparently you didn't bother to read the 'links' provided.


I'll always be supportive of a company that is at least REACHING for the stars, no matter how improbable the goal may be.
I'm sure this guy will be more than willing to take your 'Deposit' for a PAL-V; lets see how 'supportive' you REALLY are.

[Derwin]

Sorry to burst your bubble, roger, but I did indeed go back and read the links to the main site that you provided. Please don't talk down to me by telling me to "do my homework". Most of the talk was about other vehicles, and the talk about this boiled down to people giving their opinion. The people on the company forum are not engineers, my friend. They were simply giving uneducated opinion.

I never stated that this particular proposed vehicle would fly, roger. All I stated was that I support ANY company that attempts to do the SEEMINGLY impossible. Creating a flying car is definitely within the realm of possibility. And if this particular company does not make one, I am SURE that there will be SOME company that comes out with one.

My simple point was that saying "NEVER" is really a defeatist attitude. If it does not have the required tech to fly now, then I'm sure they will work out all the kinks sooner or later. By the way, I would NEVER give a deposit on anything that was not PROVEN. There would have to be working models of ANY product before money would exchange hands. But I thought that would be an obvious conclusion which any reasonable person would make. I guess I was wrong in your case.

Derwin

[rogwild]

Derwin there is a BIG difference between having a 'positive attitude' and being realistic; and being 'gullible', 'naive' or 'foolish'. We are talking about the PAL-V here, not 'some company' making 'some flying car'. Don't try to change the subject, lets try to keep it on the topic of this thread "Flying Carver" (PAL-V).
If you did read all the 'links' and did some background research on gyro-copters and 'folding rotors' (all within the past 3 hours), then it is apparent that you did not understand the difficulties and physics faced by the PAL-V. Also they have NOT licensed the Carver DVC technology (but are attempting a European 'copy' of it), and the financial 'background' of the individual/company is questionable.

I asked for reasons why you think it WILL FLY (since you dispute my statement that it won't), but you provide no response except; "NEVER is really a defeatist attitude". Not much of an argument FOR the PAL-V's success.

You SAY; "I'll always be supportive of a company that is at least REACHING for the stars", but you are unwilling to 'gamble' until the concept and technology are PROVEN. Their website has an 'Investor' page if you really want to be 'supportive', or does your 'support' just extend to criticizing those that point out apparent 'flaws' in their concept?

Any 'reasonable person' would conclude that the PAL-V (as depicted on their website) WILL NEVER FLY, just as I concluded that Michael Papp's SPARK~EV would NEVER PRODUCE an electric SUV Zolte (with an EV range of 100 mi.) for under $20,000.

If you feel that the PAL-V 'WILL FLY', please provide some reasoning or data to support it, and quit being NEGATIVE toward those who have a different opinion than you.

[Baja_Traveler]

My first thought was that they would have a very difficult time getting the weight down to make the gyrocopter flyable. The main rotors seem way too short, even if they are able to fold them in half - they would have to be folded up in fourths or even sixths to fit on the roof like that. Every autogyro I've seen has rotors that are 6-8 feet for each blade - and thats for a very light airframe. This thing would need massive blades to generate enough lift for a roadable vehicle.

[Derwin]

Roger, it does not take a long time to read through the posts on the other site that you mentioned.

As far as INVESTING in this company.... Like I said, I would never put any money down on ANYTHING that was not a proven concept. I am not a gambler.

As far as being negative..... A fellow member (shooter) was excited about this proposed vehicle, and a couple others posted interest in it also. Then YOU are the one who chose to blast it with NEGATIVE comments. I was simply responding to YOUR negative post. Sorry if this upset you..... It was not my intention to do so.

And, hey, you may be correct in your assessment of this thing.

Derwin

[Hardtime11]

My first thought was that they would have a very difficult time getting the weight down to make the gyrocopter flyable. The main rotors seem way too short, even if they are able to fold them in half - they would have to be folded up in fourths or even sixths to fit on the roof like that. Every autogyro I've seen has rotors that are 6-8 feet for each blade - and thats for a very light airframe. This thing would need massive blades to generate enough lift for a roadable vehicle.
Do not forget about the engine/motors to turn the shaft/rotor that the blades are attached to. Bigger/Stronger engine or motors would also relate to more weight back on the unit. It would be a very tricky problem to work out. I honestly would not want to be the test pilot for this vehicle. :-)

I like the idea of it and would gladly own one after it hits actual release.

[rogwild]

blast it with NEGATIVE comments Boy Derwin, you really want to be 'argumentative' today. I gave my 'realistic' opinion; that "this thing will NEVER FLY", based upon my years in the Air Force, experience as an Ultralight Instructor Pilot, and college courses in Aeronautics, Mechanics, and Thermodynamics, as well as listed links which discussed this 'proposed vehicle' where others pointed out flaws in the concept as depicted.

You then have the gall to come at me, and my opinion, without even suggesting any POSITIVE comments in defense of why this PAL-V concept is feasible as proposed, and could FLY.du:n:n:o(

Chill, man, go have a cigar!2thumb:up

[Derwin]

Yeah, I had the "gall", roger. Sorry if I was just trying to be nice to shooter and support his enthusiasm for such a vehicle. Even if the thing is not feasible in its current configuration, it is still something that will definitely be developed. But I'm sure you will find a reason why it will never happen. You certainly have that right.

Derwin

[rogwild]

My first thought was that they would have a very difficult time getting the weight down to make the gyrocopter flyable. The main rotors seem way too short, even if they are able to fold them in half - they would have to be folded up in fourths or even sixths to fit on the roof like that. Every autogyro I've seen has rotors that are 6-8 feet for each blade - and thats for a very light airframe. This thing would need massive blades to generate enough lift for a roadable vehicle.

Exactly some of the MAJOR problems with the concept, along with the fact that they would have to 'invent' a multi-foldable blade that could support that weight and pass 'airworthy certification'. Great IDEA, but too many obstacles to overcome by a 'start-up' company with no aviation background/experience. Makes the V~1's transition from the Carver One look like 'child's play' in comparison.

Looked at the Three 'Top Dogs' in the company; none have a background in aviation. Also checked the 'Partners' section. Of the two companies that have aviation experience, I could find nothing on their home websites referring to any association with the 'PAL-V'. Hummmmm?????

[danbucks]

Here are some more points to compare against: the world's smallest heli:
http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/the_worlds_smallest_one_person_helicopter.php
which does in fact fly, it appears.
Note its very short rotors, and an "interesting" in-axis counter-rotation blade.
However, here's the worry metric:
this thing weighs 155lbs, dry.
Any fully enclosed cabin with road worthy tires and Carver hydraulics will weigh far more than that (order of magnitude, in fact, for some)

[AZEqualizer]

http://www.gyroplanepassion.com/images/KW12.jpg

This guy can made a bunch of Autogyros including 'Little Nellie' from James Bond Films. I saw a feature on him on the Discovery channel ... His dream was that everyone should have one of these rather than a car.

http://www.gyroplanepassion.com/images/KW8.jpg

More info on him here: Link (http://www.gyroplanepassion.com/Ken_Wallis.html)

[WarpedOne]

I don't need nor want no friggin' flying car. I just want a normal daily commuter. I wanted it yesterday and still need it today.

I am still hoping Piaggo steps into this. They are serious compay with serious bussines model. All this other smuchs are more or less publicity hunters and " fund raisers". A can draw also.

[Baja_Traveler]

Do not forget about the engine/motors to turn the shaft/rotor that the blades are attached to. Bigger/Stronger engine or motors would also relate to more weight back on the unit. It would be a very tricky problem to work out. I honestly would not want to be the test pilot for this vehicle. :-)

I like the idea of it and would gladly own one after it hits actual release.


Actually on an Autogyro the main rotors are not power driven. Propulsion in a forward direction is provided by a pusher prop behind the vehicle - the rotors do not move with a cyclic like a standard helicopter, but are stationary and spin by the forward movement of the vehicle. You actually have to get them spinning by hand before you apply throttle and move forward to take off. Some of the newer autogyros have a little electric motor that clutches to get them spinning so you dont have to reach up to do it manually.

[RAN]

Until I got caught up in the green, no gas movement, an autogyro was something I was looking forward to getting in a couple years.

If I can manage to move away from gas in my ground transportation, I may still find a way to rationalize using it for one of these :-{)]

To get back on topic, I first heard of the Pal-V months ago, and while the idea is intriguing, I don't think it will "fly," either literally or in a business sense.

I think that someday, we may all have flying transportation, but it won't be in my lifetime... perhaps by 2108...

[Derwin]

C'mon, RAN..... You really don't think something like this will be created in your lifetime? How much longer do you expect to live? j:o"k'e)

Even with people like Moller recking it for everyone else, I still think that we will have private flight devices in our lifetime....let's say within the next 40 years. I have no clue what form they will take, but I think something will be created that will fit in your garage and have the ability to take flight from your driveway. Am I dreaming? Maybe. But I think the technology is not too far away, and maybe already exists. It's just a matter of a company having the intitiative to do it.

Derwin

[danbucks]

The issue is politics/liability - the technology exists today, just as the technology exists today for fully automated car driving (imagine what that could do for traffic and MPG).
But the FAA makes the highway department look like a care-free ultra left wing who follows no rules - anything that flies is tied to the ground with more red tape than one can shake a stick at.
ILS - hell, even modern day gps that you can actually get in planes is ancient compared to other industries. All in the name of safety. And that raises the price.

There's something ironic in getting in my friend's "brand-new" two seater prop ... built in 1975! Scares the ** out of me flying in a crusty seat-torn thing with gigantic 1975 red carb buttons and whatnot ... but that's supposed to be safer ("if it ain't broke, don't fix it") .. ok, and cheaper (still far above the price of a car).

[RAN]

I was talking about them becoming a common form of transportation for the masses, as cars are now, when I said maybe a century from now.

I think that, technically speaking, one could be designed and built long before then.... BUT... in 30 years, God willing, I'll be 84. Nobody in their right mind would hand me the keys to something like that in 30 years, lollll. They may have let Chuck Yeager fly being that old... but not me.

Also, I see Danbucks brought up the depressing but real reason that nobody can really afford to put the money into this type of vehicle to see it to fruition.

I'm in a good mood today and didn't want to go there :-{)]. Thanks Dan for covering that base.

[rogwild]

Sorry if I was just trying to be nice to shooter and support his enthusiasm for such a vehicle.
I feel that my post was 'on the topic' of the PAL-V and provided him with much more assistance in learning more about this proposed vehicle, than you provided. While your post never even mentioned the PAL-V, it just 'attacked' what YOU considered a NEGATIVE comment.
I don't remember anywhere in the club 'rules' that everyone had to agree on every subject or be 'supportive' of each others dreams. But they do say; "users should respect the other participants in this community." I personally feel that 'jumping into' a conversation (without contributing anything to the topic being discussed) just to attack someone's opinion, is 'disrespectful' to those engaged in the thread.
And then adding 'irrelevant' comments like; "But I'm sure you will find a reason why it will never happen." just 'FUELS THE FIRE' and adds nothing constructive to the conversation. Just my opinion; I could be wrong.

Now, back on topic. Here is a picture of a Pitcairn PA-19, the LARGEST autogyro ever built (from what I can find). Note the large WINGS required to provide additional lift.
http://aerofiles.com/pitc-pa19.jpg

[ziggy951]

What would be killer is if Moller actually got their **** together and built something similar in size to the V1. Now that would be a "fun" advance in personal transportation. But atm both are only pipe dreams so du:n:n:o(




Z

[RAN]

I think I still have the Popular Mechanics issue from 1980-something with the Molller on the cover. It's a nice fantasy. When we figure out how to either negate gravity, or reverse it, and we have ample, clean power supplies, then maybe it'll all come together.

Better make that 2208...

[ziggy951]

I was refering to the most recent Moller "dream machine". It doesnt use anti gravity or anything. It uses 4 small rotary/turbine type engines that pivot for lift and propulsion. It took the harrier idea and put it into a smaller vehicle. Like I said though, its a pipe dream because of Moller's long time lack of real deal projects or even a producable and working vehicle.

The idea of a 2 seater small harrier would be dang sweet though.



Z