Oh Lucy you got some 'splanen to dooo!

[AZEqualizer]

All the hot tags just get wiped on the Forum over at FlyTheRoad.com

The flytheroad.com main page got the blog button removed so it just goes to the forum... blog is still there just no button for it.

And the pre-register button is gone.


Also on the concept page we now have

Venture Vehicles plans to initially offer two propulsion packages for the VentureOne: the hybrid E50 and Q100, and all-electric Venture EV model. Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Prices (MSRP) will range from around $20,000 for the E50 Hybrid, to $25,000 for the all-electric EV model – with a wide range of accessories that will be available for each.

[Derwin]

Wow! I guess some things are changing over there. This must mean we are getting closer and closer. But I don't understand why the preregister button would be taken down. They might just be updating the website. This is a real possibility.

Let's not panic! :eek:

Derwin

[Miracleman89]

or they may have taken it down because they have a two year waiting list already!!!:eek:

But the thing that really scares me is the fact that they have raised the price on the V1s! As it was I was pushing what I could afford but now............ man I don't know if I'll get approved for a loan.:confused: I mean I am just a college student right now And every dollar counts! If they raise the price again it will most definately knock me off the owners list for awhile! God I hope not!!!!:(

[RAN]

Don't worry too much MM..... you'll probably be out of college by the time the V-1's actually hit the market. Or at worst, if you have to wait a year, you'll probably get a better model.

I'm not surprised to see the price increase; I always thought it was unrealistically low. I just hope the Q100 isn't up to $30,000 by the time it comes out.

A note to VV: it's always better to release conservative estimates up front. If you think you can have production models available by Sept 2008, say Sept 2009. If you think you can sell the E50 for $18,000, say $23,000. If you can make em any sooner or cheaper, you look like geniuses. Do it the way you're doing it now, and you look like liars and "car salesmen". Which way would you rather be seen???

[rogwild]

Unfortunately, RAN, their initial figures have already been 'published' (perhaps good advice for their 'next' model), lets just hope that through good management and 'inventive' thinking that they will be able to reverse the trend, and get close to their 'original projections'.

[randi]

So far here's what we know: it's gonna cost upwards of $20K (price jacked from $18K base). And oh, it will be IPOD-cool.

At a very possible $30K for the EV, it will be a glorified, "IPOD-cool," "covered" motorbike!

If VV drops the "IPOD-cool" appellation, do we think the price will come back down to what's sensible for the nonIPOD masses?

[Timon]

The fact they dropped the 50 is not a bad move. To start I'd rather not see too many version so they can keep manufacturing cost down. We'll just have to wait and see where the price falls.

[smoove7410]

I am more concerned with the slower 0-60 time. What happened to the sub 5 second time in the Q100?

[AZEqualizer]

The fact they dropped the 50 is not a bad move.
Don't know where you got the idea they dropped the 50 it looks like the 50 is the 20k starting point and the 25k is the starting point of the full EV.

[RAN]

AFAIK, they didn't drop the E50 (although they laid groundwork that would allow them to drop it in the future)... they just moved its price up to where the Q100 was. Frankly, they could keep things really simple and just offer the Q100 to start with. The first wave of customers are going to be more performance-oriented, and I don't know why anyone would want to pay a few thousand $ more for the lesser range and performance that the total EV model supplies. Total EV cars just aren't "there" yet. I love the Tesla, but I can't even drive it to Vegas from here.

[AZEqualizer]

Looks like we went from two in wheel motors to a single electric motor.

The system consists of a small internal combustion engine connected to a 15 – 20 kW generator, a 50 kW drive motor, a four gallon fuel tank, and an advanced high capacity battery pack.

[randi]

There are so many "surprises" today in the VV FTR forum.

Does anyone else think it might be a good idea for someone here in the FTR fan club to liaise with VV (i.e, Ian et al to compile these surprises du jour into a coherent list of “breaking news” type updates and published (here and at VV FTR) for easy reference?

It just seems the "other" site is being shaken up today (members and visitors alike) by drastic, previously unreported changes that are scattered throughout the forum. Seriously, it feels a lot like pieces of ceiling tiles falling on one's head. For example:

1) price change (from $18K base to $20K, new high of $25K)
2) pre-register button gone (mistake, software change, or deliberate closing of preregistration ?)
3) 0-60 times gone,
4) propulsion layout changed? Looks like a single drive motor instead of motors at each wheel, and batteries now in passenger compartment. Looks like for the EV the batteries extend to under the driver seat.

There must be a better way to manage communicating such major changes to a forum of avid and loyal supporters who “hang” on VV’s every word—other than what’s happening over there today.

[AZEqualizer]

And the Partner list change:

These industry heavyweights include Swift Engineering, Carver Engineering, AMCI Testing, AutoPacific Group, California Motors, Wanxiang America Corporation and Boshart Engineering.

Hardtime noted the missing players:

Missing and unaccounted for:
SI Production and Assembly Systems sipasystems.com.
A123Systems a123systems.com.
and the mention of PML Flight Link.



And of course from back in the early days. BMW Engineering.

[randi]

What's going on? Is the sky falling?

[rogwild]

Does anyone else think it might be a good idea for someone here in the FTR fan club to liaise with VV (i.e, Ian et al to compile these surprises du jour into a coherent list of “breaking news” type updates and published (here and at VV FTR) for easy reference?

Well, we have the Bi-Friday 'Update' where Ian can divulge new and relevant information to his 'avid followers', but it seems that he 'forgot' or chose not to inform us. I doubt that a 'liaise' with him would be any more forth coming, but its worth a try.

[RAN]

It appears the Q100 is the one they dropped, as it had 2x50kw motors, and all they're talking about now is one 50kw motor. It also explains the drop in 0-60 times.

Well Ian, thanks for the wonderfully informative "update" that only came 5 days ago and didn't tell us Jack. That car salesman remark I made in another thread? Consider it repeated.

VV has dropped many points in my esteem. It's now in the "I'll believe it when I see it" category, right next to the Velozzi and the Fly-V. The way this company's handling things, I sure as hell don't want one of the 1st ones they produce.

I'm going to go back to just reading ABG and Jalponik. When these guys have a prototype on the road, I'll check back. It was nice meeting you guys (and randi and mrs AZE :-). I like myself too much to go through any more of this BS lol.

[randi]

Believe it or not, that's refreshing.

[AZEqualizer]

It appears the Q100 is the one they dropped, as it had 2x50kw motors, and all they're talking about now is one 50kw motor. It also explains the drop in 0-60 times.
...
I don't think they dropped it... the only difference in the q50 and the q100 was to be more goodies and a cooling system for the motor /hybrid system components / batteries to allow for higher performance.

One has to remember building a new vehicle isn't like making a cake... things change and corporations choose their timing and how they do it... people get stuck behind the 8 ball and have their hands tied.

Sorry to see you go RAN ... drop in and say "Hay!"

[Derwin]

C'mon, guys. Why are you all ready to get so nervous or even "jump ship" at the first sign of a little change that we were not personally made aware of?

I agree with AZ, this is an entirely new vehicle that is being developed. The company set some initial goals, and they are now being altered. What's the big deal?

Let's just sit back and relax. We all want this vehicle, right? This is why we are members of the VV forum and of this club. The vehicle is not scheduled to be released until 2009 anyway. I realize this was pushed back from 2008, but things do happen. There WILL be bumps in the road! Let's not all jump out at the first sign of turbulence!

Derwin

[Timon]

I'm not sure that all that much has changed.

They still show in-wheel drive motors. Only one place said motor so that could be a typo. If they take those out ABS will get much more complex.

All of the power control and genset are still in the power pod. What I like now is that there may be room to allow for a flex fuel natural gas powered version.

The batteries have moved but I don't think that's a bad thing as long as their sealed away from the inside of the cockpit and have the required safety features. I was getting worried that there was too much weight in the rear but now that no longer a problem. With the power to weight ratio of lithium batteries the area under the floor won't have to be very thick. It will also be easier to keep them cool. As I see it moving the batteries is a good thing.

One more REALLY good thing could come from moving the batteries. You can now have a version with the larger batteries of the EV and still have room for the genset. Ok, it's not a true EV but during 95% of it's usage it would act like one. The genset will only be used when you go on long trips OR once a month just to move the oil around and to test it.

So the only thing I see that I would worry about it the one motor or two. I hope it's still two just because I don't want to see the additional mechanical components.

Ran, it's your still reading this. Most of us here have been watching VV for close to a year. Nothing to date has really made many us loose faith. You really have to remember this is a startup. They may or may not make it. If you can't take the uncertainty then it's best that you wait and check back in a year but I think you'll miss-out on a lot of fun if you do.

[Mark Tomlinson]

I still see the Q100 throughout the site and the preregistration link still works for me. I can never find the prices, but will keep looking.

What I do see changed, however, are the hub motors and batteries.

With the diagrams changed and PML Flightlink off the strategic partners list, it's clear hub motors are gone. Fine with me. Hub motors are unproven in mass production and there is only one supplier right now. Way too speculative for a vehicle that's breaking so much ground at once. Get rid of the risk and go with conventional electric motor/generators. They've been around for 100 years and have a track record in vehicles.

It's not just the battery placement that's different. A123 is no longer a strategic partner. Some other forums I participate in have noticed that other companies are backing away from A123 as well. That's not speculation, but I'm too lazy to look up the articles. It was suggested that although they have a battery they mass produce (for Craftsman, I think) the cost makes them unsuitable for large implementations, like a vehicle. That's speculation.

I'd rather Ian and company look at Firefly (http://www.fireflyenergy.com/). They've got a flooded lead battery that blows away conventional car batteries, and will be selling them to the trucking industry (http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9807447-7.html) next year.

I'm miffed that we weren't told about these changes in Ian's update. But I guess that's arrogant of me. He doesn't have to tell us anything. I just figure it would be good marketing.

[Hardtime11]

And the Partner list change:
Originally Posted by VVSite 11-08-2007
These industry heavyweights include Swift Engineering, Carver Engineering, AMCI Testing, AutoPacific Group, California Motors, Wanxiang America Corporation and Boshart Engineering.


Hardtime noted the missing players:


And of course from back in the early days. BMW Engineering.


Yeah, I did forget to mention that one either. Below is an excerpt from the previous web pages copied 4/10/07:
These industry heavyweights include Swift Engineering, SI Systems, AMCI Testing, AutoPacific Group, Wanxiang America Corporation, Boshart Engineering, California Motors, and PML Flight Link.

[Miracleman89]

:eek:Well Now I am in the category of reconsidering!! First they removed one motor, then raised the price, lowered the performance capabilty. All this and they still haven't made the first one!!! I don't know????? I will really have to consider what they finally produce and the cost before I can say I am all in anymore!:(:(:(:(:(:(

[AZEqualizer]

Hmm lots of negative vibes out there on a machine that still hasn't been produced nor a hard price set in a real world. Why give up before it is over? :confused:
I consider everything when things are real not a concept... I do like the concept of the V1. Ideas change... wait for it... the future is often different then one can guess ... Weigh the options then not now. 'nuff said' :cool:

[Miracleman89]

like I said AZ, I am now in the category of reconsidering! I say that because before I was all in, ready to buy no matter what! Now I will have to wait and see what the final product is before I make a decision! I didn't say I was jumping ship just yet! But I can no longer say I am all in!:( To be honest It is very disheartening to see what they have changed already. But I still like the concept and I still want to fly the road! I just don't want to fly the road in a hot air balloon, if you get my meaning! I wanted to fly the road in a jet fighter!

[AZEqualizer]

Maybe I'm missing something...What is the big loss in performance capacity?


Both Hybrid versions will achieve 100 mpg, with speeds of over 100 mph, and 0-60 in 7 seconds or less – a major breakthrough in the automotive industry.

Is this supposed to be a dragster or a street machine?

[Timon]

Wow, it went from 6 to 7. My old RX7 was lucky to do 0 to 60 in 9 and it was a kick in the pants to drive.

[AZEqualizer]

And like I said on the other site:

It's like a computer controlled governor.. If you want to race v1's and give up economy for higher performance... Can you say MOD... Like all things there are always aftermarket modifications for just about anything. Give it some time ... and save your $$$'s and you can tune it or swap parts to make it do what you want.

[smoove7410]

It went from 5 - 7. The performance was very important to me. I guess things will be changing a lot from now until the release, supposebly in 09.

[Miracleman89]

I think the initial shock factor is gone! now that I have had time to think about it, I believe the performance numbers and specs are for the e-50 model or base model. The more I look at the information the more it tends to look like the e-50 direction. I don't believe the Q-100 will be the same ! It will probably still have the same specs they talked about, 0-60 in about five seconds. Although they still had a price jump I think they are still on course to make the V1 what we all have come to know! Sorry everybody for jumping on the OMG bandwagon. I am better now!

[AZEqualizer]

Need to get you a "Don't Panic!" Button.:)

[Miracleman89]

I think I need the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy! Don't Panick!:eek: I have my towel now!:cool:

[Miracleman89]

this may be the reason for the price jump.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119464170144788258.html?mod=autos_feature_articl es

[WattGas?]

Or, it could have something to do with the Dollar tanking...

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DX&v=dmax

[Miracleman89]

Maybe both??? I don't know just hope it doesn't keep jumping in price!!!

[Derwin]

Wattgas,

You ain't lyin'! I am feeling the impact of the dollar losing its value BIG TIME. I import machines from overseas, and the prices have JUMPED. They all tell me it is because the US Dollar has lost a lot of value. This cuts directly into my profit margin. Oh, well.

[WattGas?]

Ouch! You have my sympathy, Derwin... (I'm in Telecommunications, so not much pain here yet, but our equipment costs are all way up... )

As the dollar falls, the price of all imports go up. Since virtually EVERYTHING in some way depends on Transportation (Gasoline) and since the US imports about 60% of the 22 million barrels a day we burn, that's driving the price of everything up. (Oil's a bit over $91 at the moment.)

I think we'll be lucky if the V1 gets to market for 25k hybrid / 30k EV...